tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post1008127592959176883..comments2024-03-10T00:44:49.280-05:00Comments on This & That: "Rape In the Palace" - Abraham & Sarah in EgyptSusannehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03115294023069458287noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-35534162203802960012021-01-03T08:50:38.845-05:002021-01-03T08:50:38.845-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.GABRIEL lighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00707416975097781732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-91514986798960343702021-01-02T18:23:09.416-05:002021-01-02T18:23:09.416-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.GABRIEL lighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00707416975097781732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-15638233519449948632021-01-02T18:06:08.654-05:002021-01-02T18:06:08.654-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.GABRIEL lighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00707416975097781732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-91780839348456998352021-01-02T18:03:24.894-05:002021-01-02T18:03:24.894-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.GABRIEL lighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00707416975097781732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-28621569563374654122021-01-02T17:12:46.457-05:002021-01-02T17:12:46.457-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.GABRIEL lighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00707416975097781732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-55069678245484962472021-01-01T15:59:28.178-05:002021-01-01T15:59:28.178-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.GABRIEL lighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00707416975097781732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-89999575480284031682021-01-01T14:53:45.385-05:002021-01-01T14:53:45.385-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.GABRIEL lighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00707416975097781732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-40313101089865204782021-01-01T14:43:27.592-05:002021-01-01T14:43:27.592-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.GABRIEL lighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00707416975097781732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-44298658220312871912021-01-01T14:31:53.529-05:002021-01-01T14:31:53.529-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.GABRIEL lighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00707416975097781732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-68376274274851572012018-03-08T17:55:08.856-05:002018-03-08T17:55:08.856-05:00It's disturbing that you think rape is funny a...It's disturbing that you think rape is funny and can't see the story from terrified Sarai's point of view. You rail against feminism so much that the plight of used and abused women barely casts a ripple for you.<br /><br />I'll pray for you.<br /><br />Because you need it.visigoth77https://www.blogger.com/profile/01363477447184820234noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-13843754218425089762017-07-05T05:13:21.423-05:002017-07-05T05:13:21.423-05:00Just heard the passage about Abram in Mass & n...Just heard the passage about Abram in Mass & no explanation given, as often in Bible readings the men are the focus but all I could think of was Hagar sounds like a victim of abuse then cast out & Abrams a rapist?! I knew Old Testament was unpleasant but I just can't relate to this stuff, it's vile. If it's just a historical account - with the New Testament being the actual guide - why does it get read out at church, what's it meant to be telling us. I'm Christian but I struggle with religion as much is man-made rather than being genuinely from God, you have to pick your way thru' the snares, the red herrings - but maybe that's the point of Faith; to believe in God despite the guff religion sometimes throws in the way?! *Disagree with the author laughing at Queen V; Victoria obviously had morals & saw thru' the story, what's to 'chuckle' about?The Radium Grrlzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10061505837258464367noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-23767040400981919002009-12-12T22:59:45.623-05:002009-12-12T22:59:45.623-05:00Muhammad Asad is very good. Makes so much sense an...Muhammad Asad is very good. Makes so much sense and is so knowledgeable. <br /><br />I guess I got too tired *trying* to make sense of excuses and accept them as truth all the time. There are events in the Judeo-Christian bibles that make me shake my head in disbelief (like sacrificing poor turtle doves after period!) but I guess I wasn't compelled to believe in them. It was all sorted out for me - they had been *corrupted.* <br /><br />I just don't feel the need to belong to one religion anymore. The most important thing is to be moral and good which is hard in itself. I fail miserably so many times. That doesn't mean I can't be Muslim; it just means why should I be just Muslims when I can be Christian/Jewish/Sikh/Buddhist as well. Muslims would say I am picking and choosing. Well, I am :) God is so complicated, belief in one religion is too simple for the complication He poses.<br /><br />Yes, reincarnation is a tricky one to believe in. I am still learning about it and there are times when I think it is possible but not in the Hindu - 7 times manner. I'm still not clear what I think about it yet.Acheloisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-19824083509488013532009-12-12T16:41:19.891-05:002009-12-12T16:41:19.891-05:00Achelois,
I have been reading the translation of ...Achelois,<br /><br />I have been reading the translation of Muhammad Asad - his notes rationalise a lot of the things you mention. But I must admit he seems to tie himself in knots at times.<br /><br />I read in a book by Farid Esack that there were variant versions of the Quran, and that no-one knew whether they had successfully compiled all of it (after Muhammad's death). I don't know why no-one talks about these things. Well, I think I do really. ;)<br /><br />Re the hadiths, I didn't think they could be as accurate as people think because of all the contradictions, and because really it's not easy to remember someone's words unless they are memorised verbatim - they change over time - Chinese whispers like. Also the hadiths are very different in nature from the Quran - much more rules and trivialities. This has always been difficult to understand.<br /><br />I feel like a weight has lifted. I didn't expect this to happen, but I can finally admit that it doesn't add up and I can't bring myself to believe in it.<br /><br />Funny you should mention Sikhism. I went to the Sikh temple a couple of weeks ago for a "meet the Sikhs" type of event. I like it but I'm not sure about reincarnation.<br /><br />Yes, I have always been comparing Islam with Christianity. I don't know where I will go next but I don't feel in such a hurry now.<br /><br />Thanks for offering me your email address. I will keep in touch with you, I think. If you would like to email me my address is on my blogger profile page.<br /><br />By the way, I read some of your old blog too and loved it! I recently came across your new one so I am still following you. ;)Sarahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11320601087412404116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-10263045603562098312009-12-12T10:04:59.091-05:002009-12-12T10:04:59.091-05:00Susanne, Hagar doesn’t exist in the Quran. Can you...Susanne, Hagar doesn’t exist in the Quran. Can you believe that? I think the books would be banned because it shows Abraham in a weaker position than Hagar. <br />I would like you to read something. When you have the time please email me and I’ll send you something to read.Acheloisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-23275843601910729482009-12-12T09:02:47.479-05:002009-12-12T09:02:47.479-05:00Sarah/Laila/WWR, interesting about the Qur'an ...Sarah/Laila/WWR, interesting about the Qur'an saying what it does about Moses and David. Yes, how can having someone murdered only be a "mistake" and no grave sin? Thanks for bringing that up. It seems the Muslims (some) have even whitewashed their own holy book! :-O<br /><br />"Lately I am thinking that expecting any religion or scripture to be perfect is asking too much, because only God is perfect." -- good point<br /><br />Achelois, thanks for what you shared about sex outside of marriage in that culture. Hmmm. Interesting to think about anyway. Why do you think this book would be banned by Muslims? It gives the Muslim POV as well. She tries to mesh all three Abrahamic religions and has sources from each.<br /><br />Wow about the two Adams! See why I am glad you are commenting on this topic? I learn a lot from you. Remember how much I enjoyed these types of discussions on your old blog? I always liked hearing what you'd learned from your reading of spiritual things. They were quite challenging. I still remember your post about whether Isaac or Ishmael were the son whom Abraham offered to God. I wish that blog were still accessible. :-)<br /><br /><br />"I strongly believe in God and love Him very, very much to the point of obsession but I don’t think He writes books. I believe that He inspires people and He is kind enough to speak to anyone who truly wants a connection with Him and not just the prophets."<br /><br />Well said. I don't think God writes books either. We should never put our holy books above the God of the book. He is the One we worship and obey. While I believe the holy books are beneficial for teaching us about God and He uses them to communicate with us, I don't think we should make the holy books idols.<br /><br />"These were the beliefs of people from early Judeo-Christian times and existed in the early Islamic period as well, but God definitely knew even then that these were not universal truths. How did they make it first into the Bible and then into the Quran?"<br /><br />I think because the Bible is claimed to be the inspired word of God, there is room for human error regarding the earth being flat, bats being categorized as birds and so forth. As you said, those were the beliefs at that time. Does this affect the message God wants us to learn from Bible? I don't think so. The problem with the Qur'an is that it is supposedly word for word from God so there is *no room* for humans' erroneous beliefs. Either God said it and believed the earth was flat or babies came from a blood clot or else He is not all-knowing. With the Bible, you have room for the transcribers' limited human knowledge without affecting the message of or about or from God. <br /><br />Thanks for explaining why you are UU now. I have GREATLY enjoyed learning from yours and Sarah's discussion here. You ladies feel free to keep on talking here as long as you like. (Amber, too!) I love learning from others' discussions as long as you don't mind me listening in on ya. ;-)<br /><br />Thanks for your comments. Loved them!Susannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03115294023069458287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-5170469231667859812009-12-12T01:39:58.737-05:002009-12-12T01:39:58.737-05:00Oh and Laila, I hope you don’t mind me asking, but...Oh and Laila, I hope you don’t mind me asking, but which religion(s) are you comparing Islam with for tawheed? I am assuming you are comparing it with Trinitarian Christianity. But there are other religions that preach strict monotheism, for example Sikhism or Unitarian Christianity or even Ismaili Shiaism and Ahmadism. Why is it that only Islam is making sense to you? I’m sorry if it is an uncomfortable questions and you are free to ignore it. Islam is not the only religion that preaches monotheism but it is more universal. Sikhs are very strict monotheists – their ‘kalima’ is ek onkar saath naam (there is one (ek) God and His name is the Truth (saath)); there is no human being mentioned in their Kalima and is free from ‘shirk’. Unitarian Christians are also very strict monotheists and believe in Jesus as a human guide and prophet.Acheloisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-85065470705007233542009-12-12T01:39:21.448-05:002009-12-12T01:39:21.448-05:00Laila, you can email me anytime you feel like chat...Laila, you can email me anytime you feel like chatting. My email is achelois06 at gmail dot com. <br />I began reading the Quran when I was six years old and finished reading it in Arabic with correct recitation in less than a year. I didn’t pick it up for another 20 years and frankly it didn’t bother my parents because I had ‘read’ it! But when I read it again and looked up various translations (including one in easy Arabic) I was in for surprises. I have read seven different interpretations and it wasn’t until I had read the Jewish and Christian Bibles (which are banned for Muslims to read in the ME, btw) that I felt the urge to read the sirahs (biographies) of Muhammad. I have read at least four different ones by Muslims and non-Muslims. <br />I am fairly certain that much that we have today in terms of biographies, ahadith and the Quran is very carefully preserved. Almost calculatingly preserved. As a Hanafi I used to recite dua Qunoot in the Isha prayer (in witr) and did you know that it was part of the Quran compiled in Syria by a senior hafiz of Muhammad’s time and later chucked out by Caliph Uthman? My Shia friend was kind enough to show me her Quran and that is much different from Sunni Quran. The Quran of the Qadianis and Ismailis is also different. How do we know which one is the most well-preserved? It again depends on which sect we belong to. <br />I was recently reading the account of convert to Christianity from Islam and s/he compared the events in Muhammad’s lives with that of Ahmed Qadiani. I must say they were very similar. So I tried to secure a copy of one of his books. I only managed to find a reference to it and his books (which he claimed were dictated by Gabriel to him in Arabic – he did not know a word of Arabic being Indian himself, but once he was sermonizing and automatically began speaking in flawless Arabic in a different voice for an hour after which he collapsed!) had great messages. Yet Muslims would never accept his books as revelation? Why not – I mean if they are in a different language, a language he didn’t know; and if they contain moral lessons; and if they preach tawheed, then why can’t they be a miracle? And he was alive in the age where his voice could be recorded and he could be photographed so we know that his books are preserved very well. <br />The thing is the older the belief the more it becomes true even if it may not be the case. All monotheists may find Hinduism strange and wonder how seemingly intelligent people can bow their heads to stone idols of elephants and monkeys. But Hinduism is one of the oldest religions and hence the truth to those who are born into the religion. Muhammad was a powerful man. When he wasn’t powerful he was just one of the many prophets that were appearing in Arabia and was non-threatening. I have read the original letter written by him to the two ruling brothers of Oman and it was extremely authoritative. That is how Islam grew basically. <br />I am a Unitarian Universalist. I believe in good moral lessons which can come from any holy book. I’m not arrogant about what I must follow. If there is a great lesson in the Sikh’s Book, why shouldn’t I respect and follow it? I once read that it is foolish to imagine how God speaks. To think that God speaks in the words of the Quran is limiting His immense power. If we believe that His one glimpse could burn down Mt. Sinai how do mere pages survive if His words appear as the Quran on them. I made sense to me.Acheloisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-52542446533592563582009-12-12T01:30:16.453-05:002009-12-12T01:30:16.453-05:00Laila, I am sure you know about the other serious ...Laila, I am sure you know about the other serious contradictions in the Quran about Biblical events as well. For example, in the Quran Mary the mother of Jesus is confused with Miriam the sister of Moses. I have read both the Muslim and Christian arguments about it and believe that she is in fact quite sadly confused with Moses’ sister in the Quran. Or that David is said to have worn a chain mail which was not even invented in David’s time although iron was begun to have been actively used by then. Also, a pharaoh was supposed to have crucified someone but crucifixion was invented many centuries after the pharaohs. I have an e-book that very nicely explains how the claim that the embryology in the Quran is a miracle is a false claim and highlights the erroneous beliefs about conception and pregnancy of those times which exist in the Quran. For example, people in that time believed in Aristotle’s belief that a fetus is the coagulated menstrual blood turned into a clot by the sperm and the very first verse believed to have been revealed to Muhammad states “Read in the name of your Lord who created, created man from a clot.” But we know today that a fetus is not a blood clot. We also now know that mountains actually cause more earthquakes rather than prevent them, and that the Earth is not flat or that the Sun does not revolve around the Earth, or that it does not dip into murky water. These were the beliefs of people from early Judeo-Christian times and existed in the early Islamic period as well, but God definitely knew even then that these were not universal truths. How did they make it first into the Bible and then into the Quran?Acheloisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-22406550354638548502009-12-11T18:57:28.283-05:002009-12-11T18:57:28.283-05:00I am absolutely loving that you all are leaving yo...I am absolutely loving that you all are leaving your thoughts. They are most welcome and please don't apologize for their length or anything. Really. I love being safe like Switzerland! :-D<br /><br />Talk away, Ladies! I am enjoying the discussion. You all know I like hearing your thoughts - thus why I visit your blogs! Speak freely! :)Susannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03115294023069458287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-53329720649569192492009-12-11T17:31:25.773-05:002009-12-11T17:31:25.773-05:00Achelois, thanks for answering my question! Sorry ...Achelois, thanks for answering my question! Sorry to hear you couldn't comment on my blog. But I'm glad there was a way for you to share this with me.<br /><br />I have been aware that the Quran contains stories that compare to apocryphal Judeo-Christian sources, for some time. I do not think this was a coincidence. It's one of the reasons I have difficulty seeing the Quran as a totally miraculous phenomenon.<br /><br />The historical accounts confuse me. There seems to be only one continuous story and that's Surah Yusuf. Why does that one get told in full and at length? I don't know. Plus when it tells the story of Lot's escape from Sodom and Gomorrah, sometimes it says his wife was left behind, sometimes it says an old woman was left behind. Not an inconsistency, but it does make it seem like parallel accounts, like the different gospels. So I can see where you're coming from.<br /><br />I can imagine God speaking to a prophet through his own mind and through the stories/legends he already knew. But as you say, this is not a view of revelation that traditional Islam supports.<br /><br />A while back I got some comments from an interesting person who had concluded, like you, that God doesn't write books. I have been thinking about that too and wondering whether I believe it. If God did write a book, how would I expect it to look? I'm not sure. Lately I am thinking that expecting any religion or scripture to be perfect is asking too much, because only God is perfect.<br /><br />Maybe the idea of "words of God" was needed in order to preserve the message. After all, the Quran seems to have been preserved a lot better than the hadiths, because it was committed to memory verbatim and revered in that way.<br /><br />Working out what the overall message of the Quran is and what I think about it, is my main "quest". But I can't deny there is this side issue of how it came about. I also can't deny that Christianity doesn't have this problem because as you say, its texts were never meant to be literal words of God.<br /><br />So far, Islam is winning with me because of tawheed. I think being a freelance monotheist is the only other viable option for me right now. But I don't know whether I think reason alone can lead us to tawheed, or whether revelation through prophets was required to allow us all to get there. Also the support available in belonging to a religion seems to be a good argument for the existence of religions.<br /><br />If I may ask you another question, do you think Muhammad was mistaken about his supposed revelation experiences, or do you think at least some of the Quran was actually later compiled from various sources and then retrospectively developed an identity as a book of God?<br /><br />Thanks again for sharing your views... it's helpful and timely for me. ;)<br /><br />And Susanne, I hope you don't mind me rambling on like this on your blog... but knowing you I am hopeful that you'll find the discussion interesting :) Personally this space feels like a little Switzerland... I can't write on my own blog at the moment because there were too many people bombarding me with views and I needed some "head space". I feel safer here :D Thanks for having me!Sarahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11320601087412404116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-4959973676966646612009-12-11T13:35:52.617-05:002009-12-11T13:35:52.617-05:00Laila, I admire honesty and straightforwardness a ...Laila, I admire honesty and straightforwardness a lot so I don’t mind your question at all. I actually tried to comment on your blog on the ‘Jesus in Quran’ post but for some reason I can’t leave a comment on your blog so I gave up. Maybe if I write here what I wanted to write there I would be able to explain how I think about the nature of the Quran.<br /><br />Regarding that post of yours I always thought it was quite plainly given in the Quran that Mary was a virgin:<br /><br />She said: "How can I have a son, when no man has touched me, nor am I unchaste?" (Quran 19:20). It is an exact and correct translation from the Arabic text. <br /><br />These are the exact words used in the apocryphal text of The Gospel of the Nativity of Mary:<br /><br />"How can that come to pass? For while, according to my vow, I never know man, how can I bring forth without the addition of man's seed?"<br /><br />In fact, the verses in the Quran where the birth of Mary is announced to her mother also parallel those used in The Gospel of the Nativity of Mary.<br /><br />Verses from Surah Maryam correspond to those in The Gospel of the Nativity of Mary and The Infancy Gospel of Thomas, both of which are apocryphal texts. We read that Jesus spoke from his cradle. Those are details found in the same order and exact details in the apocryphal Infancy Gospel of Thomas written much earlier than the compiled Quran. <br />----<br />Even very early scholars like Ibn Ezra claimed that Torah was not written by Moses and was written a lot later. We know that the Gospel was written many years after Jesus’ death. Both books can be compared to the Muslim belief in the ahadith – written by those other than the Prophet and at least 200 years after his death. But Muslims think that Quran is the uncreated word of God and the Quran itself claims that both Torah and Gospel are revealed books. Muslims also believe that the Jewish and Christian Bibles that exist today are corrupted but then we see many verses in the Quran that exist in the same order in the Bibles. <br /><br />I strongly believe in God and love Him very, very much to the point of obsession but I don’t think He writes books. I believe that He inspires people and He is kind enough to speak to anyone who truly wants a connection with Him and not just the prophets. <br /><br />Thus IMHO He can inspire anyone and He definitely did inspire prophets but I don’t think He used them as stenographers. In that way I know that at least the Gospel does not make loud claims. It merely highlights the teachings of Christ who was inspired by God, but there are no claims that every word of the Gospel is the unaltered word of God which makes it easy for a believer to accept its message and reject odd parts without feeling guilty. This does not mean I don’t respect the Torah or the Quran. There are definitely great lessons in both books as well but to accept them as unaltered words of God is difficult. <br /><br />Susanne, I am so sorry for this lengthy comment. I got carried away :)Acheloisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-49780050924976142782009-12-11T08:16:56.035-05:002009-12-11T08:16:56.035-05:00Achelois,
Ah, so for the traditionalists, she bec...Achelois,<br /><br />Ah, so for the traditionalists, she became a wife by bearing a son or something like that? That might explain why I've only seen her mentioned as a wife.<br /><br />I'm curious about your comments on the Quran - I'm currently undecided on the nature of the Quran, and it's a little obsession of mine! You say you think it's based on Judeo-Christian sources - do you think this makes it bogus, or do you think God spoke to Muhammad through those sources?<br /><br />I feel embarrassed asking such a direct and nosy question, but it's rare to find such independent thinkers in the Muslim tradition and I would love to know what (if anything) you've concluded.<br /><br />SarahSarahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11320601087412404116noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-76320353422349683722009-12-11T03:34:20.889-05:002009-12-11T03:34:20.889-05:00Wrestling with Religion, the Quranists absolutely ...Wrestling with Religion, the Quranists absolutely believe that Hagar was a wife because they claim that prophets never kept concubines. They even claim that she was never abandoned in Mecca because if she were it would make Abraham a cruel man. But concubinage in itself is not seen as a moral offence by traditionalists who claim that all prophets kept concubines from Abraham to Muhammad. The fact that Hagar gave Abraham the first son is enough for Muslims to respect her as a wife. <br />Verses 3:46 and 19:19 are taken by Muslims to believe that Jesus was sinless. In 19:19 the word used to describe Jesus is ‘zakiyya’ which means ‘faultless’ so he is explicitly called sinless or faultless in the Quran which I believe (not a common Muslim belief) is based on the belief derived from the NT.Acheloisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-35491728175107236172009-12-11T03:07:34.148-05:002009-12-11T03:07:34.148-05:00Amber, Muslims hardly ever believe in what they be...Amber, Muslims hardly ever believe in what they believe :D Haha!<br />The text says something and they believe something else. David is known to have sinned, so did Solomon and Moses and even Muhammad but Muslims as a group would never ever accept it. The belief in the infallibility of the prophets is so strong that now Muslims actively deny the episode of the Satanic Verses claiming that Muhammad was sinless even though he himself believed otherwise. <br />Ibn Arabi, a Sufi saint believed that the Adam that sinned in heaven cannot be the Prophet Adam (Muslims believe Adam was also a prophet) because how could a prophet forget a strict order by God not to eat the forbidden fruit and get expelled from paradise. Therefore he claimed that the Adam who sinned in Heaven was a different Adam and not Prophet Adam! <br />So yes, while in the religion of Islam prophets have been known and accepted to have sinned (mainly because it is based on Judeo-Christian sources), Muslims believe otherwise because they as a people venerate all Godly people quite easily.Acheloisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-34901887830910801172009-12-11T02:58:45.637-05:002009-12-11T02:58:45.637-05:00OK, let me try to explain. What I meant is that se...OK, let me try to explain. What I meant is that sex outside of marriage was not a grave sin in the eyes of men and women in Abraham’s time. I always felt that Abraham’s relationships with Hagar (and Keturah as well – who btw, doesn’t exist in Islamic texts) was not quite ‘kosher’ because frankly I prefer that Christ never kept slaves for comfort or for sex. We don’t learn from the Bible that he did anything like that. <br />But if Abraham slept with Hagar, through the book you quote we learn that he didn’t mind his wife sleeping with the Pharaoh either. Perhaps to him an heir and his own safety were far more important than sex with people other than the spouse.<br />I know that this book would be banned by Muslims :)Acheloisnoreply@blogger.com