tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post357516614835098769..comments2024-03-10T00:44:49.280-05:00Comments on This & That: Separation of Church/Mosque & StateSusannehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03115294023069458287noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-19309284122856921872010-07-01T06:12:46.403-05:002010-07-01T06:12:46.403-05:00Tauqeer, thanks for answering my inquiry!
",...Tauqeer, thanks for answering my inquiry!<br /><br />", because at the end of the day it depends how pure is the soul of a person responsible to implement the law, either it be secular or religious."<br /><br />Really liked that. So true! <br /><br />Nice having your input on this topic. Thanks much for dropping by!Susannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03115294023069458287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-52323610033363646072010-07-01T01:44:28.023-05:002010-07-01T01:44:28.023-05:00@Susanne: I see Iran as interesting example becaus...@Susanne: I see Iran as interesting example because they have most stable form of 'democratic' government in this part of the world. <br />The way they have mixed modern democratic process of electing government officials with traditional role of religious figures is what interests me. I am not saying they do not have problems, I even do not believe in magical powers of any system to get rid of ALL the problems, because at the end of the day it depends how pure is the soul of a person responsible to implement the law, either it be secular or religious.Tauqeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17912048812602075915noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-46886831136732162642010-07-01T00:48:26.789-05:002010-07-01T00:48:26.789-05:00@miss: Good you mentioned "women" as wel...@miss: Good you mentioned "women" as well! lolTauqeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17912048812602075915noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-80304841642166021032010-06-30T23:14:09.603-05:002010-06-30T23:14:09.603-05:00@ Wafa - I agree! This is exactly the problem - th...@ Wafa - I agree! This is exactly the problem - the system will inevitably be abused by the men (or women) in power!misschatterboxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16620056873898706488noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-30392247106999349742010-06-30T19:09:26.724-05:002010-06-30T19:09:26.724-05:00Miss Chatterbox, you summed it up well with this: ...Miss Chatterbox, you summed it up well with this: <br /><br />" So let's be honest here, no amount of regulation will stop people sinning. And this is essentialty what this is about.<br /><br />The only way to reduce these sort of things is for the person to have a relationship with God. And this is an individual thing, not something you can foister on society."<br /><br />Yes, this was part of the message of this post. Societies are changed when people's hearts are changed by GOD not legislation.<br /><br /><br />Thanks, everyone, for great comments!Susannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03115294023069458287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-20516889934563053802010-06-30T19:08:58.449-05:002010-06-30T19:08:58.449-05:00Tauqeer, I agree that preserving families is good,...Tauqeer, I agree that preserving families is good, but sometimes it seems there is very little mercy. People have to be perfect which is so anti-human nature. I'd like to see more grace extended. When people sin, love them and let them know they are redeemable rather than drown them in shame and make them feel they have no more value. :-/Susannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03115294023069458287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-53784166807209774092010-06-30T19:08:34.523-05:002010-06-30T19:08:34.523-05:00Wafa', I always love to hear your thoughts on ...Wafa', I always love to hear your thoughts on these issues especially since you live in a society where "the mosque" strongly influences the state. Thanks so much for what you shared. Good stuff to ponder!Susannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03115294023069458287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-86583627098781975652010-06-30T19:08:13.024-05:002010-06-30T19:08:13.024-05:00Miss Chatterbox, very nice to read your perspectiv...Miss Chatterbox, very nice to read your perspective. It's interesting how some sins are punished while others are not....good point. I guess that happens in all societies since society doesn't recognize gossiping/pride/selfishness as a sin ... unlike God. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this issue! Nice to see you again! :)Susannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03115294023069458287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-46892565416741861022010-06-30T19:07:45.069-05:002010-06-30T19:07:45.069-05:00Sanil, you always bring up interesting and very cu...Sanil, you always bring up interesting and very cultural-context relevant points. Yes, you make sense that it would be hard for certain cultures to give up their mix of the religious and political since it's how things have always been basically. Thank you for sharing this wonderful POV. I am often "bad" about mixing my 21st century thoughts with ancient ones and that's not so good to do. :)Susannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03115294023069458287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-45536788209126742402010-06-30T18:53:57.816-05:002010-06-30T18:53:57.816-05:00Tauqeer, I really enjoy what you added. So you thi...Tauqeer, I really enjoy what you added. So you think Iran as an "interesting example" is a good example or just one you take interest in because it's better than the other places that have some forms of shariah?<br /><br />I've often heard Muslims praise the first years of the caliphate, but if it was so good, why did it not last? It seems it was good only for a short time and then the successors interpreted shariah their own ways and the wonderful Islamic caliphate was over just like that. Isn't this the problem....the variety of interpretations? <br /><br />Thanks for your comment!Susannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03115294023069458287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-47997831778293379402010-06-30T18:50:35.325-05:002010-06-30T18:50:35.325-05:00Suroor, I'm really glad you came back to post ...Suroor, I'm really glad you came back to post more than your late-night one liner! Your comment was very rich and interesting. I didn't know about the tinted-widow law in the GCC - how, um, weird! :)<br /><br />I agree that RL is more or less "written in stone." I suppose its because those people believe it's from God, therefore, how dare we change what GOD said? I can understand that, but the problem is what is "from God" for YOU may not be "from God" for ME. Like I have no problem entering a bathroom with my right foot or even eating shrimp or lobster (which a kosher-eating Jew would never eat). And those are mild things...we aren't even talking on how to GOVERN people in society. Some think Christianity is maybe lax in this department because we have no law setup like the Jews and Muslims, but I see Christianity working within whatever societies Christians are in. I don't think God ever meant for all Christians to live in Christiantown and stay out of the way of everyone else. We are to be salt and light to a needy world so how exactly does one do this if he is boxed up in his Christian-only world? What if Jesus refused to meet with anyone except "the righteous" and he didn't go out and meet the needs of the sick, hurting, the sinners, the prostitutes, the Samaritans (Jewish enemies of the time), the Gentiles? I think Christians have principles from Jesus on how to act in ANY form of government whether we find ourselves in a secular society, an Islamic republic, a Communist dictatorship or "the land of the free and the home of the brave." This is why we don't have a huge set of rules. We follow Jesus' example, we love others, we obey our rulers, we share the good news of Jesus and we be good citizens and caring neighbors no matter where we live.<br /><br />And, yeah, the Spanish Inquisition and such...perfect examples of imperfectly following the teachings of Jesus. I don't recall Jesus ever telling someone "covert or I'll kill ya." Rather when some of his followers decided his teachings were too difficult and they left, he turned to his disciples and said, "Do you also want to leave?" :)Susannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03115294023069458287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-2960520928227747602010-06-30T18:48:01.157-05:002010-06-30T18:48:01.157-05:00Lat, I really loved your comment and the example y...Lat, I really loved your comment and the example you provided of Indonesia. It's really so true what you said about mercy and compassion taking a back seat. Jesus told us the greatest among us is the one who serves. Yet how many of the ones in power truly have servants' hearts? They seem to only want more power and more privileges! I think we all need to guard ourselves against the pride that often comes with power. We need to walk humbly with God and realize in His eyes the one who serves is the one who is the greatest. And we should want to be the greatest in God's eyes because His thoughts of us matter more than what Average Joe or Average Ahmad believe about us. Wonderful comment - thanks much for sharing!Susannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03115294023069458287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-74340949372898836202010-06-30T18:29:36.626-05:002010-06-30T18:29:36.626-05:00Sarah, you had excellent points. I greatly enjoyed...Sarah, you had excellent points. I greatly enjoyed your POV.<br /><br />" Materialism is a corrupting force anf it takes a strong person to reisist the corruption of soul it brings."<br /><br />Yes, we have to realize money is not what saves us. I love the Biblical phrase about "what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses his soul" meaning that we can have a lot of material wealth - indeed the "whole world" yet what good is it if our eternal souls are lost in hell?<br /><br />Good usage of the camel/needle quote! Thank you again!!Susannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03115294023069458287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-43955276479894774222010-06-30T18:25:51.566-05:002010-06-30T18:25:51.566-05:00Niki, wonderful thoughts and additions to the post...Niki, wonderful thoughts and additions to the post. Thank you very much for taking time to share those things. I always enjoy what you add! I almost said something about Jesus and the earthly vs. spiritual kingdom thing, but didn't for the sake of space. So I'm glad you mentioned it. Thanks again! :)Susannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03115294023069458287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-73187782885028491172010-06-30T18:01:26.286-05:002010-06-30T18:01:26.286-05:00@ tauqeer,
(So even such system does not escape fr...@ tauqeer,<br />(So even such system does not escape from influence of 'powerful men'), so what's the solution ? it's all going to be applied according to how men of power WANT it :(Wafahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01533307419295995833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-9494654776757152722010-06-30T04:31:22.511-05:002010-06-30T04:31:22.511-05:00I am talking about the reason for regulation.
I w...I am talking about the reason for regulation.<br /><br />I would point out that the statistics would rely on REPORTED incidents of rape. Firstly rape often goes unreported due to feelings of shame, secondly rape in marriage and other circumstances is not recognised, thirdly the legal system is corrupt (such as a case a year ago where several of the rapists were police men), fourthly ruling/influential families are above prosecution and fifthly there are many instances where a woman has been raped and the man has merely claimed the woman is lying and it was consensual. And sometimes the woman is then punished for committing adultery. Murder rates I cannot comment on but some of the factors mentioned are relevant to that too, also hte matter may be settled outside the legal system through blood money.<br /><br />That said it actually has nothing to do with the topic, which is religious law being used as state law/sepration of churhc and state.<br /><br />After all EVERY country legislates against murder and rape so these have nothing to do with this is irrespective of religion. The penatly (jail, death etc) is also irrespective of religion.<br /><br />As regards alcohol it is circular logic to say "drinking alcohol is punished because it's against the law" .. the question is WHY is it against the law?<br /><br />Every society needs regulation - I guess my view is closest to the libertarian view - if it causes harm to someone then it needs to be prevented (fraud/murder/rape/theft etc) and we also need to look out for social welfare through the provision of education, health care etc. But things like alcohol and pre-marital sex are more sinful than criminal - and therefore none of the states business. <br />On a side note, the divorce rates of KSA clearly show these sort of laws do not protect family insitutions at all.<br /><br />That said I think your last point is the most valid: if it your understanding of Islam then you have need to justify it,a s you are Muslim and I am not :) However I do know many devout Muslims who disagree over the interpretation of Shari'a and the validity of any Islamic State (in todays context) :) Thanks for the conversation though, it's been a good mental work-out!misschatterboxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16620056873898706488noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-10423541297353199722010-06-30T03:59:09.594-05:002010-06-30T03:59:09.594-05:00I think we have a difference of opinion on the ver...I think we have a difference of opinion on the very nature of a regulation. I believe regulation is required in all the spheres of human life, let it be private life or social life. <br /><br />You mentioned KSA for instance, and as we know they have implemented Shariah laws, the country has one of the lowest crime rates in the world!<br />Let me paste some data here:<br />"According to the INTERPOL data, for murder, the rate in 2000 was 0.71 per 100,000 population for Saudi Arabia, 1.10 for Japan, and 5.51 for USA. For rape, the rate in 2000 was 0.14 for Saudi Arabia, compared with 1.78 for Japan and 32.05 for USA. For robbery, the rate in 2000 was 0.14 for Saudi Arabia, 4.08 for Japan, and 144.92 for USA." <br />http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/rwinslow/asia_pacific/saudi_arabia.html<br /><br />A person who drinks is punished not because he committed a sin, but he violated the law of the country, which is pretty much the same as burglar receiving jail sentence for theft. <br /><br />Again coming back to Shariah, these laws are mentioned in Holy Quran itself, and for us as Muslims, the best way to connect to God is to follow his Book.Tauqeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17912048812602075915noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-50663198721775086552010-06-30T02:41:01.153-05:002010-06-30T02:41:01.153-05:00@ Tauqueer - Thanks for your insights and explanat...@ Tauqueer - Thanks for your insights and explanation. I do agree with your comment that <br /><br />"Only those SINS or errors are punishable under Shariah law, which can be accounted for, or can be humanly measured."<br /><br />For example you mention the difficulty in measuring unkndiness. You are exactly right. And herin lies the very point: it is impossible to truly measure, judge and punish sin, only God can do that. THIS is why I believe it is crazy for society to dry and do that. Because we can't truly judge ALL sin (nor is it our place too) we can't judge SOME of it (e.g alcohol.) It simply isn't just or fair. <br /><br />I wonder how it that you feel legislation on issues such as pre-marital sex "save family institutions" and "preserves respect for relatioships"? it is possible our understanding of these things differ.<br />To my point of view regulation does not affect people's opinions or views. Unkindness, gossip, disrespect are all sins which affect these things equally (and in some cases more so.) Again regulating against SOME of these factors and not ALL is ineffective. It is sin that ruins family insitutions and we cannot erase that. Alcohol actually only poses a problem if the indidivual is an alcoholic - and if they do not have a family then not at all. And regulating any of these things still doesn't prevent people from doing them. <br /><br />You mention "I hope you do appreciate the fact that society does needs to be regulated in some form, or as in case of U.K, you would end up with a huge problem of binge drinking and early teen pregnancie."<br /><br />I disagree that society 'needs to be regulated in some form' in regards to issues such as sex - this is precisely the point- humans cannot regulate sin! While teenage pregnancy and drinking are definately not good for society no amount of 'regulation' if going to stop that. Look at KSA - there is STILL sex going on despite regulation but to avoid detection women have surgery to reapir hymens, travel to india to have abortions or have non-vaginal intercourse! So let's be honest here, no amount of regulation will stop people sinning. And this is essentialty what this is about. <br /><br />The only way to reduce these sort of things is for the person to have a relationship with God. And this is an individual thing, not something you can foister on society.<br /><br />Looking forward to your thoughts!misschatterboxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16620056873898706488noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-13045572694444076642010-06-30T00:52:04.211-05:002010-06-30T00:52:04.211-05:00@Wafa: You have yourself referred to different ...@Wafa: You have yourself referred to different 'interpretation' of secularism in different parts of the world. So even such system does not escape from influence of 'powerful men'.Tauqeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17912048812602075915noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-66910629311794381482010-06-30T00:36:08.405-05:002010-06-30T00:36:08.405-05:00@misschatterbox:
For most of the your questions, ...@misschatterbox:<br /><br />For most of the your questions, related to 'why' this and not that has been answered by the Shariah itself and the ones needs to be punished openly are mentioned. Only those SINS or errors are punishable under Shariah law, which can be accounted for, or can be humanly measured. <br /><br />For instance, it would really be hard to judge unkindness of any form based on physical evidence. As far as the pre-marital sex and alcohol drinking is concerned, it is a matter of regulating society, to save family institutions, to preserve respect for relationships and so on. <br />I hope you do appreciate the fact that society does needs to be regulated in some form, or as in case of U.K, you would end up with a huge problem of binge drinking and early teen pregnancies.Tauqeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17912048812602075915noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-81783751695652047082010-06-30T00:35:06.382-05:002010-06-30T00:35:06.382-05:00i believe that there should be seperation between ...i believe that there should be seperation between mosque and the state. seriously it frustrates me to know that there are different interpetation of the sharia and i can be stuck to only one because powerful men believe that this is the right one for me. For example the Hajib issue or the mixing between men and women here in Saudi Arabia whereas in other Muslims countries they apply different rules that are drived from the sharia. Secularism is a soultion, i guess. a good one, but i don't want this sepration to stop me from practicing my believs. Something like the one in USA and UK is a good one where it's the opposite in France for example. <br />There is a saying by prophet Muhammad- that many Mulim scolars like to not talk about- that says" you are well aware of your daily life-earthly-matters" . it's a true indication that we are more aware of what our daily matters need.Wafahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01533307419295995833noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-19620498267323225972010-06-29T23:03:24.144-05:002010-06-29T23:03:24.144-05:00Interesting post susanne!
Well I think firstly his...Interesting post susanne!<br />Well I think firstly history shows us that religious ruling does not work - just look at the book of judges! Almost every secod reign Israel woudl stray - even the judges appointed by God would err!<br />I think we cannot have religious law because<br />a) it cannot be perfectly upheld/enoforced/interpreted simply because human's by nature, are flawed and sinful.<br /><br />b) it relies on the premise of someone juding somebody else. Essentialty the ruling person/body punishes/condemns people for their sins. That is only God's job.<br /><br />Now some people may disagree with the second point. Let's take a look at some aspects of sharia:<br />For exmple it is a punishable offence to commit adultery, to commit apostasy (this is debated), to drink alcohol and eat pork (I think?!) Why? Because these things are all SINS and against God's law. Anything against God's law is a sin.<br />Firstly: who are we to judge one another for sins?<br />Secondly this system only punishes SOME sins. So for example drinking alcohol may be punished but gossip, bullying, unkindness - all sins - go unpunished.<br />What if one person, in a moment of weakness, in despair as his life falls apart gets drunk to try and forget everything? This is a sin, yes - but does it affect other people, does it harm anyone else?<br /><br />Then what about someone who viciously gossips about others in the work place? or someone who ignores a workmate who is deeply depressed? This is also sinful and can be far more damaging.<br /><br />Another issue is that it is unclear what these punishments are for? Are they God's divine punishments for sin? If so, how do we punish some sin, and not the rest? And does that mean that person is forgiven, having being punished? Having being lashed for drinking alcohol is that sin erased? Or is God going to punish him AGAIN after he dies? If someone is executed - does this mean he has died for his sin, so is exonerated? And if not then why execute someone before they have the chance to try and live Islamically and earn God's forgiveness? By executing them you are condemning them to certain hell.<br />If the punishment is simply to maintain society then it must be asked why pre-marital sex and alcohol, while sins, are punished when they don't affect other people. <br /><br />In the O.T the punishments were so harsh because salvation was dependent on purity - on punihsing sin and upholding God's law.They were designed not just to maintain order in society, they were actually there to enforce God's law. Of course they failed to do this, which is why Jesus died to pay the penalty of God's law.Jesus actually said that this type of law (similiar to sharia) is insufficient because not only murder in sin, even being angry without cause is a sin. Therefore it is impossible to regulate/punish every sin.<br /><br />Ok i think I rambled a bit - hope you can make sense of it!<br /><br />I am the first to acknowledge my understanding of sharia is minimal - nor is there even concensus in the Muslim community - but this is just my understanding of it!misschatterboxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16620056873898706488noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-91010867988711195302010-06-29T10:59:53.949-05:002010-06-29T10:59:53.949-05:00(Um, before I start, there is a little label at th...(Um, before I start, there is a little label at the top of the page telling me my comment was published. I didn't write anything. If there is a blank comment from me that somehow accidentally got posted, I'm sorry and please feel free to delete it.) <br /><br />Anyway. I think there is a difference in the cultures that make this a difficult issue. The Qur'an, like the Torah, is more than just a foundation of the religion. It is the foundation of a state. The Torah is ancient Israel's Constitution. There are all sorts of rules in it that only make sense in that context (like the Sanctuary cities or death penalties, for example). So while I'm obviously not as familiar as you are with the Qur'an, I would imagine there are similarities there, and that at least parts of it deal specifically with state issues. To take it out of this context means it has to be changed and re-interpreted.<br /><br />Christianity, by contrast, was started in a world where there was already a government with a state religion that was <b>against</b> Christian beliefs and practice. Christianity therefore doesn't have those state-dependent rules and in fact is necessarily done in a way that almost <b>requires</b> for it to be separate from the state.<br /><br />I come from a Christian-influenced culture that cherishes this separation, and I cherish it too. I would much prefer to live in a country where the state and the religion don't mix. But I can see how other religions and states where the two have been woven together so much in the past would have a difficult time trying to separate them now.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07382787889525110718noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-52305329851657787372010-06-29T04:27:19.779-05:002010-06-29T04:27:19.779-05:00urmmm...okay :P But not a very good example to con...urmmm...okay :P But not a very good example to consider merits of Shariah or Religious form of government!Tauqeerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17912048812602075915noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-740924465958245224.post-51879638890857855402010-06-29T03:31:43.507-05:002010-06-29T03:31:43.507-05:00Tauqeer I would disagree with myself too if I had ...Tauqeer I would disagree with myself too if I had said that most GCC countries have Islamic laws :D<br /><br />I think I very clearly wrote "Shariah is still prevalent in GCC countries with a mix of tribal law..."<br /><br />Saudi Arabia too has a mix.Suroorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07151400258859526990noreply@blogger.com