I read this on May 24 and wrote the post the following morning ... too early in the day. Would love to read your thoughts on my rather disjointed notes. Thanks!
Sura 15 -- al-Hijr
The first part of this chapter discusses a time of judgment which is coming at an appointed time.
4. Not one habitation have We destroyed but at the time determined for it. 5. No people can hasten or delay the term already fixed for them.
This should be proof enough for certain people who think by orchestrating certain world events they can bring the End Time events to pass and usher in the Messiah or whatever they believe will happen towards the end. I hear this occasionally. Really.
9. We have sent down this Exposition, and We will guard it.
I assume "this Exposition" is the Quran and since Muslims believe the Torah and Gospels were corrupted, God decided this time He would personally guard it from being changed. What do you think?
12. We place in the hearts of sinners (disbelief). 13. So, they will not believe in it: The example of former people is there.
So from my reading thus far, I am getting the impression that if you are a "sinner" then God will make you disbelieve and guide you astray. However, if you have some measure of goodness already in you, He will help you believe and guide you the right way. I suppose the twenty-five thousand dollar question is: how much goodness do I have to possess in order for God to show me the right way?
Verses 16 and following have some pretty interesting descriptions of the creation - God stretching out the world (is it flat then?) and fastening it down with stabilizers. Rain-laden winds and "water from the sky." Kind of fascinating to visualize all this.
And then we get to how God created man:
28. But when your Lord said to the angels: "I am verily going to create a human being from fermented clay dried tingling hard; 29. And when I have fashioned him and breathed into him of My spirit, bow before him in homage;"
The Bible's account says Adam was made from the dust of the ground, God breathed into him the breath of life (Genesis 2:7) and also that we are made in the image of God. (Gen. 1:26). In what ways do you believe we are in the "image of God" or do you think this is a grossly false statement?
39. "O my Lord," he said, "since You have led me into error I'll beguile them with the pleasures of the world and lead them astray, 40. Except the chosen ones among Your creatures."
I thought this was an interesting talk by Satan since he blamed God for leading him in error. Does God lead us astray?
There was some more of Lot's story in this passage -- the visitors he received, the message of doom for Sodom and the instruction for Lot and his family to flee.
80. The people of Al-Hijr denied Our apostles;
Good to see where the name of this sura came from. I found it interesting how the Quran noted these people hid in mountains. I remember the caves I'd see in Maaloula, Syria and how fascinated I was by them as we'd drive by. I could well imagine how someone would hide out in them. Unfortunately for the Hijri people, they couldn't hide from God and when they rejected His message, a "mighty blast" got them and their attempts at finding security in the mountains failed.
Verses 88 through 93 took my attention. Something about not coveting the things God has given others to enjoy, His being a "distinct warner" such as those apostles, I suppose, who were sent to other people previously. I'm guessing the Jews and Christians since this version reads:
89. And say: "I am a distinct warner," 90. Like (those) We had sent to those schismatics who slandered their Books 91. And severed their Scripture into fragments.
What's the meaning of these verses?
It follows that those people will be questioned for their deeds and for the Muslims not to worry at those who scoff at them. Instead they should keep worshiping, keep bowing in submission and glorifying God with their praises until death comes.
18 comments:
'This should be proof enough for certain people who think by orchestrating certain world events they can bring the End Time events to pass and usher in the Messiah or whatever they believe will happen towards the end. I hear this occasionally. Really.'
Yeah. I've never really understood the desire to jump start Armageddon. And in the Bible it says that we won't know that it's coming! So why?
'God stretching out the world (is it flat then?) and fastening it down with stabilizers'
Aren't the 'stabilizers' meant to be the mountains in this verse? If so, whoops. Mountains do absolutely nothing to stabilize the earth. Not even the crust.
'I thought this was an interesting talk by Satan since he blamed God for leading him in error. Does God lead us astray?'
I must conclude so, given all the verses that cite God guiding whom He wills and leading astray whom He wills.
Re verse 12, I understood it like this. The more you do good, the more you will like good and therefore see God. And vice versa for if you do bad. Don't know if it makes sense but it did to me at the time :)
I always wondered what the "mighty blast" was - a big trumpet?? These translations are a little cryptic!
"It follows that those people will be questioned for their deeds and for the Muslims not to worry at those who scoff at them. Instead they should keep worshiping, keep bowing in submission and glorifying God with their praises until death comes."
Interesting eh? If they all followed that advice, rather than getting up in arms about people drawing Muhammad, no-one would be interested in drawing Muhammad :)
Hijr = Hagar = stone/hard rock
89. And say: "I am a distinct warner," 90. Like (those) We had sent to those schismatics who slandered their Books 91. And severed their Scripture into fragments.
What's the meaning of these verses?
It means “O! Muhammad, tell them that I am distinctly a warner just like the warners sent before me (Moses, Jesus) to those people who create divisions between people (instead of all accepting Muhammad and being People of the Book, they want to be Jews and Christians) and who severed the original scriptures sent to them into pieces (corrupted Torah and Gospel).”
Amber, why indeed! Whenever I hear of plots to make the Dome of the Rock disappear so they can rebuild the Jewish Temple, I think how silly people can be. :-/
Yeah, mountains are actually quite unstable. Maybe it was poetic license. :)
Yes, it seems God even lead Satan astray. *shrug* Who knew?
Sarah, aha!
"The more you do good, the more you will like good and therefore see God. "
Yes, I suppose that makes sense. I'm glad you pointed this out.
Oooh, I also wondered about the "mighty blast." Couldn't have been the American troops with their bombs back then. (Thinking of mountains/caves in Afghanistan.) I was thinking of loud thunder or some mighty wind that was really loud. It's "fun" to imagine what it might be.
"Interesting eh? If they all followed that advice, rather than getting up in arms about people drawing Muhammad, no-one would be interested in drawing Muhammad :)"
Ha! I totally did not think about that, but now that I reread the verse and your reply...perfect! For those who seem to get up in arms about those who scoff at them, we should remind them of this sura! It's a perfect solution for dealing with mockers.
Suroor, this sura is literally Hagar? As in Ishmael's mom? Or just her name happens to mean "rock" and that's what this book mentions? Whoa, thanks for the info!
So "God" wanted us to ALLLLLLLLLLL be People of the Book...like ONE Book, however, Jews and Christians insisted on being divided *and* on dividing their Scriptures? That's interesting especially since I thought God sent down the Books divided -- one to Moses, another to David, one to Jesus and then finally the corrected one to Muhammad.
Thanks for the explanation!
How do Muslims understand the stretch out the earth thing? It seems to make the earth flat, but maybe it's poetic license for the sake of visualizing something. What say ye? :)
No I was trying to create a linguistic link. In Hebrew Hagar is Hajar in Arabic and from that Hijr.
Earth stretched out, to me, is poetry just like in the Bible is it believed to be stretched out like the heavens. I never saw any Science in Quran or the Bible, to be honest. My ancestors always believed in the Quran without knowing any science. This is a new fad - to find science in the Quran that started in the early 1980s. Quran is completely lucid and beautiful without the science.
Science in Quran is a tricky one because it is *only* Muslims who think that Quran is the first book to mention all these "scientific miracles" whereas it can easily be proved that there were books and people who knew all this when the Quran was codified.
I can talk about each one of them but it would take very long.
Suroor, thanks for explaining the linguistic link. Very cool. I think you told me once that Hagar wasn't even mentioned by name in the Quran, right?
Yes, I never took the Bible as a science book. It's not. And from what I've read the Quran's scientific "miracles" are debatable as you implied. You said there are too many to list, but for the sake of examples, could you perhaps share one or two that are your "favorites"?
I figured the stretching out the earth thing was merely picturesque language. Kind of like in the Bible when it speaks of the trees clapping their hands. :) I read the Quran more this way than as a book full of scientific miracles or discoveries that are going to prove it's from God.
Since the Bible claims to use human authors inspired by God, but not be a book dictated word-for-word from God, I can take the unscientific stuff like saying a bat is a bird as human error or whatever. It's trickier with Islam since they claim the Quran is directly from God. It must be, IMO, free from error if they want to prove God knows what He is talking about scientifically, historically and so forth.
Thanks for the follow-up comment.
15:12 - I've always understood this (based on learned people) that this is describing those persistent in disbelief. Each one of us are sinners, but the fact is some are bent on continuing in their sin and justifying it. When you dig yourself so deep into a hole that you actually think you're on top because no one else is around, I believe this is the situation this verse is describing.
15:16 - I can stretch something over a basketball. Stretching doesn't imply it being flat. There are scientists that have proofs that mountains anchor continents. Does that mean they don't move? No. You could anchor a boat to the ocean floor and while you are anchored, you will move with the ocean floor. Again, we can't impose all these assumptions into simple statements.
"Some scientists, such as David James of the Carnegie Institution of Washington, believe that the continents are anchored into the mantle by deep keels of rock that extend hundred of miles below the surface, and the continental crust and mantle therefore move in concert)." [Excerpt from http://www.pbs.org/wnet/savageearth/hellscrust/index.html]
As for the science in the Qur'an, I can say there are well constructed arguments on both sides. I'm obviously of the viewpoint that there is too much proof to deny the authorship is from God Almighty, and that even if we find a "mistake", it doesn't mean we default to a book (whether that is the Hindu scriptures, OT, NT, whatever) that is expected to have such mistakes. We, after all, were the ones who said that the Earth was flat and the center of the universe for quite some time. With our moving target on what is "correct", I think we should take things with a grain of salt. With that said, there are things we just learned "recently" that have been in the Qur'an for centuries.
This isn't as much Science as it is History, but there's an area in the Qur'an where the leader of Egypt is called "Malik" or "King." For quite some time, the learned of the Muslim community were questioned by non-Muslims how a book from God could have such a simple mistake... I mean, any 3rd grader knows that a leader in Egypt is a Pharaoh. Duh!
I'm not sure exactly when, but I believe it is within the last 100 years, we found out that when Egypt was controlled by other regime, they never took on the name of Pharaoh and instead called the leader a King, which proves the historical account correct.
I say this with believing that I am correct, but being open to ideas outside of my own. The terrible habit in this life is having a "I'm right so you're wrong" attitude. I pray to be kept from such thinking and to be forgiven for any attitude I have portrayed as such.
My concern is not that the Science in the Quran is right or wrong. My argument is that people of that time knew all that. It wasn't a scientific miracle to them and if they hadn't known all of this it would have flown over their heads; how would that have helped anyone?
If for instance, 7th century Arabians hadn't known that meteorites which fall carry iron in them, would they have appreciated that knowledge in the Quran? Wouldn't they have questioned what was Quran going on about? They revered meteorites that fell with minerals in them. To this day Muslims revere the Black Stone - not worship it but respect it enough to kiss it and put their foreheads to it.
The tomb of Tutankhamen carried several items made from meteoritic iron because it was believed to have been sent down by the gods.
Or for example, embryology. Some embryologist claimed 7th C Arabs couldn't have known about it and every one jumps up. The fact that early Muslims didn’t question Muhammad about the stages of embryo development, or meteoritic iron, or mountains used as pegs is because that is what they believed at that time. They already knew all these *facts* and marveled at the unmatched poetic language of the Quran rather than the *scientific miracles.* Quran calls its language a miracle, not the science in it or the lack of thereof.
Quran merely uses the pre-existing knowledge of the people of that time to show the might and glory of Allah. Convert interpreters have called it all allegory and metaphoric language which I think is a better idea than saying that “no sorry, ‘nutfah’ is not a sperm drop but actually a zygote” You can’t tell me that after 1400 years of calling sperm a nutfah!
I disagree with Dr. Moore that “most of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later.” Only because he doesn’t know about other Scriptures doesn’t mean the knowledge didn’t exist.
The Srimad Bhagavatam which was written in the 5th century is a very ancient text and it has been clearer and most exact regarding human embryology than any Scripture that I have read.
You may want to take a few minutes to read the first few verses at least – http://srimadbhagavatam.com/3/31/en
I know that many dawah giving Muslims cite science in the Quran to convert people. My question is if I can show you passages from Hindu texts that offer the same scientific miracles to have been known centuries before Islam, would you convert to polytheism? Of course, you'd say no, monotheism is the key. And that is my argument. It is Oneness of God that should be the key, not science. And monotheism itself is not exclusive to Islam - Judaism, Biblical monotheism, Sikhism are also strictly monotheistic.
I told you I could go on forever! And I haven't even covered all points :D
Here is another one:
Have We not made the earth as a bed, and the mountains as pegs? (Quran, 78:6-7)
God has firmly fixed the earth with pegs around it. (YajurVeda: 5: 16. 6)
YajurVeda was written in 600 BC! I think the only people who don't know that people in the 7th Century knew all this are Muslims and Christian Evangelists :D Haha!
This is one reason I say science is compatible with religion and scientist should read religious history to know what ancient people knew and believed. This knowledge that they claim to possess only 100 years or so ago, ancient people have known for thousands of years.
Durriyyah, I'm so glad to read your comment. Your understanding of verse 12 describing those persistent in disbelief makes much sense!
Good examples about stretching something over a basketball and the anchor in the water....hmmm. You are good at helping me visualize things in practical ways - thank you! How cool about the "pharoah" vs. "king" thing that you shared!
"I say this with believing that I am correct, but being open to ideas outside of my own. The terrible habit in this life is having a "I'm right so you're wrong" attitude. I pray to be kept from such thinking and to be forgiven for any attitude I have portrayed as such."
What a great attitude. I hope to be this way as well. Some days I think I do better than others, but it's what I hope for. :)
Thanks much for your comment. I always look forward to what you have to say!
Suroor, glad you came back to explain.
"My concern is not that the Science in the Quran is right or wrong. My argument is that people of that time knew all that. It wasn't a scientific miracle to them and if they hadn't known all of this it would have flown over their heads; how would that have helped anyone? "
Hmmmm, that's an interesting perspective.
"Quran merely uses the pre-existing knowledge of the people of that time to show the might and glory of Allah."
That makes sense. Quran never claimed to be a science book and as you said it bragged of its wonderful words not its scientific revelations.
"I know that many dawah giving Muslims cite science in the Quran to convert people. My question is if I can show you passages from Hindu texts that offer the same scientific miracles to have been known centuries before Islam, would you convert to polytheism? Of course, you'd say no, monotheism is the key. And that is my argument. It is Oneness of God that should be the key, not science."
That makes tons of sense. Maybe we miss the boat when we try to convert people by showing how our holy books are superior in science. They never were meant to be used this way. Hmmm. I believe the Message of God is the key, not science or history or even poetry.
"YajurVeda was written in 600 BC! I think the only people who don't know that people in the 7th Century knew all this are Muslims and Christian Evangelists :D Haha!"
Well, now I know, thanks to you! :-D :-P
"This knowledge that they claim to possess only 100 years or so ago, ancient people have known for thousands of years."
Great point! I think we often believe we are superior somehow ... like we've evolved and people back then were so stupid compared to the intelligent beings we are now.
Enjoyed your comments! You ladies bring up very interesting points and great stuff to consider. Thanks much!
Susanne, didn't Jesus say he was the last prophet sent by God? I'm referring to the parable in Matthew 21:33-39.
From what I have read in the Bible/Torah, the last prophet is definitely mentioned in the OT/Torah but the descriptions that are presented match Jesus, and Jesus was believed to be the last Abrahamic prophet according to the Bible (hence the term 'symbolic son of God, that is the most beloved).
Are there other passages that point towards Muhammad?
Suroor, good question. I've always understood that parable to show that God sent prophets (represented by the servants sent to the tenants), but they were often killed by the people.
Then God decided to send His son (represented by this:
37Last of all, he sent his son to them. 'They will respect my son,' he said. )
Of course they killed him too in the parable and in real life (according to our views.)
No, I've never seen Muhammad prophesied in the Bible. I've seen a few Muslim arguments for it, but they don't hold water as far as I'm concerned. If Muhammad were a true prophet, he wouldn't have distorted the teaching of the Jesus. Period.
Sorry to come back so late on this...
"If Muhammad were a true prophet, he wouldn't have distorted the teaching of the Jesus. Period. "
There's a really wise quote, and I forget what the source is but it goes "When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change."
When I read the Gospels (essentially what people believe Jesus (pbuh) said and taught), I do not read a different message than that of what all the other prophets brought, including Muhammed (pbuh). I'll have to ask my husband if he minds if I post his conversion story on my blog as he stopped praying to Jesus (pbuh) as a divine entity before he ever looked at Islam. Why? He felt that Jesus (pbuh) taught everyone to pray to God, the Father, and did not bring praise and worship upon himself.
Durriyyah, I'd like to read his story if he allows you to post it. :)
Absolutely. Here it is.
http://durriyyah-wandering-star.blogspot.com/2010/06/my-husbands-conversion-story.html
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