OK, it's not something I've brought up before now though I've seen it over and over and over again so, in reality, I probably should have commented on it in a previous post. I purposefully avoided mentioning it before since it's something I knew already about the message of the Quran. "It" being the third on this list.
1. The Quran is for real.
2. Muhammad is not a sorcerer so we should take what he says seriously, as from God.
3. God should not be associated with partners.
I loved the verses about cows. I live in the country and I've always found it cheery to see the cows grazing in the fields. In fact as I read this verse Monday evening,
6. There is life and cheer for you as you drive them home in the evening, and lead them out in the morning to graze.
I heard cows mooing and had to smile at how appropriate it was to read about and hear cows at the same time! :-)
I enjoyed all the verses about nature and God's provision for the earth and its inhabitants. God surely thought of all the details - food and water for us all.
17. So, could one who creates be like one who cannot? Will you not then contemplate?
20. As for those they call besides God, they cannot create a thing, and have themselves been created.
These verses on creation reminded me of two things: John's words about Jesus:
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
and also the Quran's view of Jesus creating life from a bird. Granted, I know in the latter it was "by God's permission," however, it still came to mind as I read about those who could create life. As you can read above, John believed without Jesus nothing that is made was created.
I thought verses 33-37 were interesting. It's the story of unbelievers who accused God of not guiding them. God countered that He sent apostles to every community and, therefore, the people's destruction was due to their not accepting the apostles' message and instead accusing them of lies.
63. By God, We sent apostles to many a people before you, but Satan made their acts seem attractive to them, and he is their friend this day, and a painful torment awaits them.
More talk of people who enjoyed their sinfulness, made friends with the devil and await a painful torment.
This next part was rather fun to visualize as I read it:
65. God sends down water from the skies and quickens the dead earth to a new birth. Here is a sign for those who listen. 66. And surely in cattle there is a lesson for you: We give you a drink from the extract of food in their bellies and blood-purest milk so delicious to drink. 67. And in fruits of the date-palm and the vine, from which you obtain inebriating drinks and excellent food. In this indeed are signs for those who understand. 68. Your Lord predisposed the bees to make their hives in mountains, trees and trellices, 69. And suck from all fruits and flit about the unrestricted paths of their Lord. A drink of various hues comes out of their bellies which contains medicine for men. In this is a sign for those who reflect.
I'm not sure if it's scientifically correct, but maybe more "poetic license" in describing the way nature -- cows, trees, and bees -- provide for us. I see at this point in Muslim history alcohol must not have been forbidden unless God was only discussing "inebriating drinks" that the nonMuslims made from the fruit.
79. Do you not see the birds held high between the heavens and the earth? Nothing holds them (aloft) but God. There are verily signs in this for those who believe.
Recently it was a breezy day and I was reading on my porch. I glanced around and birds were soaring way up high so I stopped for a few minutes just to watch them and wonder what it was like to view the earth from high in the sky!
93. If God had pleased He would surely have made you a single community of belief; but He leads whosoever He wills astray, and guides whosoever He please. But you will surely be questioned about what you used to do.
Another predestination verse? I think this a good verse to use against those (few, I think) extreme types who believe all people need to convert. God didn't even will this to happen. It's His desire that some be lead astray while He will guide others to Himself.
96. For what you possess will pass, but what is with God will abide. We shall certainly award those who persevere a recompense in keeping with their deeds
The first part of this verse reminded me of Jesus' words during his sermon on the mount:
19"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. (Matthew 6)
101. When We replace a message with another -- and God knows best what He reveals -- they say: "You have made it up;" yet most of them do not know.
So it seems Muslims believe God does replace messages. He gave the Jews one Law, to Christ another to give to his followers and maybe Islam for everyone who lived after Muhammad's time on earth. However, I hear Muslims say that God's message has always been the same yet the holy books of the Jews and Christians were changed. Therefore, does God preserve His message or replace it maybe update it as the mood hits? Let me say that I do believe God makes covenants with people. If you read the OT you will see God making covenants with Noah and Abraham and the children of Israel. Jesus claimed to have fulfilled the Law, and, in my thinking a new covenant based on this passage from Jeremiah 31 was foretold.
31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,"
declares the LORD.
33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD.
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."
So God makes and fulfills covenants and here perhaps He instituted a new one. Maybe Muhammad's message was yet another?
106. Whosoever denies having once believed -- unless he is forced to do so while his heart enjoys the peace of faith -- and opens his mind to disbelief will suffer the wrath of God. Their punishment will be great, 107. For they loved the life of this world more than the life to come; and God does not guide those who do not believe.
OK, so this passage really took my attention especially the last phrase. First we must believe then God guides us. This is why it was so important for the people to trust Muhammad and this message he was bringing. When they could submit to belief in Muhammad (and by extension God) THEN they could follow the Islamic rules and the end result would be guidance to God in the Hereafter. Right? That's not really different from the faith other prophets have required. We do have to accept the Messenger and Message in order to believe what is said as truth or error. This is why it's crucial to examine the Messenger and Message to see if it is truth!
125. Call them to the path of your Lord with wisdom and words of good advice; and reason with them in the best way possible. Your Lord surely knows who strays from His path, and He knows those who are guided the right way.
19 comments:
'and also the Quran's view of Jesus creating life from a bird.'
A similar story of Jesus giving life to clay birds existed prior to the Qur'an in the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, which is an extra canonical text of questionable value. It's generally considered to be a Gnostic text, though there is some question over whether they wrote it or simply adopted it and adapted it for their theological purposes. It's dated to the second century.
Definitely poetic license.
Amber, I'm glad you added that bit. Thank you!
There is actually a lot in the Infancy Gospel that appears in the Quran but I must point out that the Infancy Gospel is an apocryphal text NOW. It was canonized in Ethiopia in the 7th Century and is still read in the Coptic church.
Personally, it doesn't matter to me if passages from the Quran match those from the apocryphal texts. Canonization of Biblical Texts took centuries to reach where it is now.
I was actually saying the same thing to a friend today. I told him that it is no proof that Quran is not from God; when you know that it is, you know it and when you know it isn't, you know that too.
His response was actually quite unique. He said that Quran is not from God for him because all Biblical prophets had direct communication links with God:
*Abraham had visions and dreams
*God spoke to Noah
*He spoke to Moses and actually showed Himself to him.
*Jesus came "pre-programmed" with His Word
Except for Muhammad. "Muhammad claimed to have received revelation through a third party, Gabriel and angels only appeared to non-prophets (if ever) like Mary and Hagar and Sarah. They never brought a message to prophets who were called prophets because God chose to speak to them Himself."
According to my friend if Muhammad were a prophet and the last and most perfect prophet, God would have spoken to him directly. There is no way of proving that the being that talked to him was sent by God.
This friend is a former Muslim btw (must add he was a traditional Muslim and at time used to be a Salafi) and is now Christian and I never heard this argument before. It is always interesting to learn what people think to make them believe what they believe in.
Wanted to add, I wish you could listen to this in Arabic AND understand. It is a beautiful surah in original Arabic. And I love, love, love Surah Fajr.
Two verses (87:26-27) from that surah were my Dad's favourite and are inscribed on his tombstone:
"O satisfied soul, return to your Lord satisfied, and satisfying Him."
Suroor,
You're right. I forgot about the Coptic church. My apologies. :)
I didn't bring it up as a 'proof' against the Qur'an, but merely as an interesting bit of related information. Reading about how the Bible was canonized and the long, long, long process it involved is eye opening, for sure. And then there's the question of attribution of the works vs. actual authorship. I personally enjoy the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, regardless of it's scriptural value. It's sort of like modern day 'fan fiction'. A filling in of the 'blanks' due to popular demand. :)
Huh. Your friends response is very interesting, and it's the first time I've heard that argument.
Amber, I didn't think at all that you were trying to use it as a defense against the Quran. I just mentioned it because I'm thinking about the links between various texts.
Suroor, that's an interesting observation your friend made.
"His response was actually quite unique. He said that Quran is not from God for him because all Biblical prophets had direct communication links with God:"
Yet what is telling is that for poor Muhammad who needed miracles in order to prove his prophethood to many people of his day, God didn't give him any and said only He would be witness to Muhammad's new status. NOT that all the prophets did miracles, however, it seems Muhammad *really* needed some. Also something I've heard especially re: Moses, Jesus and even Paul (who never claimed prophethood only that he was one who wanted to share about the good news) is that others did hear/see something from the heavens in regards to these three men. Unless I haven't heard of it, I don't recall *any* "outside verification"so to speak of Muhammad's revelation except for Muhammad himself. The ones who assured him that this was something from God never - to my knowledge - were actually there to see this happening,right?
"This friend is a former Muslim btw (must add he was a traditional Muslim and at time used to be a Salafi) and is now Christian and I never heard this argument before. It is always interesting to learn what people think to make them believe what they believe in."
How intriguing. Yes, I often find that interesting as well. Is this that he shared what convinced him?
"O satisfied soul, return to your Lord satisfied, and satisfying Him."
Very beautiful for a tombstone - wow! Thanks for sharing that. I'll look forward to reading this sura. :)
Amber, LOL @ it being like fan fiction. :)
I figured both of you brought up the Gospel of Thomas to show that the Quran has a story from another source which makes sense since it's a basic rehashing (reminder) of popular stories at that time apparently.
Thank you both for your comments!
I don't know why he converted; I only know that he has powerful visions that disturbed him for many years when he was Salafi. He is actually a Biblical monotheist so doesn't believe in Jesus as God and it was he who got me interested in reading the Bible and knowing Jesus.
To your first points - it's wonderful how some things are just so cut and dry. God really makes it clear how we are supposed to believe.
65 - I'm not sure how this would be scientifically incorrect. The honey from bees is a known source of healthy benefits.
101- God replaces laws, as needed by each community. The message of "I am God, one God, worship Me" remains all through time.
106 - I agree that we definitely need to examine the Messenger. We have to be careful of the slander out there against each one, though. For instance, if we look at the claims made against Jesus (pbuh) from the Jews, we would be shocked… and I would never be a follower of what he taught if I believed those things! Slander is the earliest, most basic form of getting people to not listen to what one has to say.
Side note from comments - Mohammed (pbuh) was given miracles, but the fact is, we don't give them a lot of attention because miracles are something written in a book and can not be "proved" by one already convinced it isn't true.
Durriyyah, thanks for your explanations. Yeah, I agree that honey has some good benefits. I used it one winter when I had a horrible cough and it worked quite well as a suppressant. Honey in hot tea is my favorite sore throat remedy. :)
"Side note from comments - Mohammed (pbuh) was given miracles, but the fact is, we don't give them a lot of attention because miracles are something written in a book and can not be "proved" by one already convinced it isn't true."
True, however, the miracles of OT prophets and Jesus and his disciples WERE recorded in the Bible so maybe it was just something new for Muhammad's miracles to not be recorded in the Quran.
Glad you stopped by and left your thoughts! Have a good Saturday!
Suanne, Quran does refer to Muhammad's miracle as well. It refers to Quran being his miracle, a miracle that is eternal unlike the miracles of other prophets.
Most Muslims don't believe that he did any other miracles. Some interpreters even describe his ascent to heaven as a dream/soul experience and not real body experience.
And I don't think they need to anyway when the Quran openly calls itself a miracle.
Suroor, yes, I thought the Quran was Muhammad's miracle, but there again,you have circular reasoning of the Quran validating Muhammad and Muhammad validating the Quran which validates him which validates the Quran. I suppose if you truly believe Muhammad were illiterate then it might be a miracle, but then again, we don't believe he wrote it down, but he relayed it to people who did know how to write. Oral transmission was a skill many people had back then so he problem had this so I don't see how it's really a miracle. But then I'm a skeptic so I would.
"so he problem had this so I don't see how it's really a miracle."
Sorry, "PROBABLY had this" meaning oral transmission skills. Problem is wrong.
Susanne, I can see your point too. Have you heard of John Corcoran? He was illiterate for 48 years and has been literate for only 17 years but before he was completely literate, he had already written a book on the importance of literacy!
Or the example of a little girl we know who dictated short stories to her mother when she wasn't even old enough to read or write and her mother recently published those stories in Oman. The girl is now older and in school.
We seem to see literacy in contemporary terms and equate it with intelligence and imagination both of which are actually not dependent on literacy. Can a person who has never read, not be able to write something completely amazing? I don't think so.
Take another example of Akbar the Great. He was completely illiterate and it is said even his wife didn't know it! When she learnt how to write Urdu she wrote his name in beautiful script and that is when he accepted he had no idea what she had written! But he has an autobiography ... he dictated it to his sister who was a great writer and historian.
Homer, one of the greatest Greek scholars and a poet par excellence, was blind and hence never learned how to read since there was no Braille at that time (obviously!). Can there be another Iliad or Odyssey?
Yea, so I understand your argument. Illiteracy is an argument I have still not fully understood.
Suroor, those are great examples.
See, even if Muhammad were illiterate that only means what? he couldn't read or write. So did we really think Gabriel revealed the Quran and Muhammad jotted notes as Gabriel talked? Or that scribes were standing nearby writing down the revelation in shorthand? No, I don't think so. I've never heard this suggested. Those scribes would be key eye witnesses to what Muhammad heard or saw.
We think Gabriel gave the revelation to Muhammad who was able to memorize what Gabriel said and then retell it to others. Now maybe THIS (his memorization skills!) was the miracle, but to me this is not illiteracy. and what I understand from ancient cultures, they were wonderful at oral transmission and this is how their stories were passed from generation to generation.
So I'm serious in asking where does the miracle of the Quran as related to Muhammad's illiterate status come into play?
"So I'm serious in asking where does the miracle of the Quran as related to Muhammad's illiterate status come into play?"
I read a long time ago that people didn't claim Muhammad was illiterate in early Islam. There are many, many Muslims who believe he could read and write. He was a very successful trader and that must have involved reading, calculating and signing deals. Some scholars describe the word (ummi) used in the Quran in connection with Arabs and Muhammad as actually referring to his people who were gentile and to whom no book had ever been revealed.
My father didn't believe Muhammad was illiterate but he completely believed in the miracle of the Quran.
The miracle is not that he was illiterate and brought Quran to the people, but that in a remote, barren small desert a Heavenly Book was revealed that possessed language that stunned people.
It is true that not every one was stunned :) And it is also true that some actually did take up Quran's challenge to produce a Word like It, but they were punished for even thinking they could imitate the Quran's magnificence. What is actually more telling is that there were versions of the Quran studied by people which were collected and burned by Caliph Uthman because they contained surahs that were not genuine which just means someone did write in a language similar to the Quran for Muslims not to know the difference. Hanafi Muslims recite Dua Al Qunoot in Witr prayer which is believed to have been part of the Quran that was found in Syria by Uthman's envoys. It was NOT part of the original Quran according to Uthman and was therefore removed from his codified version. However, Muslims in Syria and even in Yemen didn't know the difference between Allah's words in the Quran and the words of the author of Dua Al Qunnot (it is believed the Dua is Muhammad's) and recited it as part of the Quran. Many Muslims still recite it in their last prayer of the day.
So what was the miracle then if some did manage to imitate the Quran (but were stopped from creating an entire book) and if the Prophet was perhaps literate?
I would say the fact that an Arab descendant of Abraham was sent the Message; the fact that a remote land was chosen to be the center of one of the world's most influential religions.
Even the very Christian Watts believed that the fact Muhammad was successful was because there was something there from God; some purpose; some reason, otherwise Islam would have long died out in its infancy. But it didn't. That purpose is both a miracle and a mystery.
I think it's too late :D I misunderstood your question, didn't I?! :D
How does that come into play... his illiteracy? I honestly don't know.
Suroor, your answer was great. LOTS of interesting stuff....really. I appreciate the thorough, thought-provoking stuff you shared.
I'll admit this --
"Even the very Christian Watts believed that the fact Muhammad was successful was because there was something there from God; some purpose; some reason, otherwise Islam would have long died out in its infancy. But it didn't. That purpose is both a miracle and a mystery."
does make me wonder from time to time. I've thought of this before because I do believe Islam is successful for a reason as well. I wish I knew why. It has piqued my curiosity.
Thanks much for your comment!
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