Sura 48 - al-Fath
Two disturbing suras in a row and I read them both within a matter of an hour or so on this Monday morning, June 14. I have so many questions, concerns and comments so let's get started.
1. WE HAVE GIVEN you a splendent victory 2. That God may save you from earlier and subsequent blames, and complete His favours on you, and guide you on the straight path,
Often when I read the Quran I can just read, but occasionally I have to wonder who the "you" is. Is it me the reader? Muhammad? The believers? And if the Quran is a guide for all time is the victory mentioned in verse one a spiritual victory or something physical that believers can obtain in this life? And what are these "blames" that God promises to save "you" from? Sins? Accusations?
4. It is He who sent down the sense of security into the hearts of believers so that their faith may increase with belief, -- God's are the armies of the heavens and the earth; and God is all-knowing and all-wise; --
Is this "sense of security" like an assurance of salvation that God gives to Muslims so they know they have obtained salvation? I thought God's claim to own the armies of the earth was interesting. He says it again in verse 7. I take this to mean that God is the one who controls even the US Armed Forces so we shouldn't really fear what the US military does even in Muslim lands. After all it was God's will apparently that this happened with His army. Maybe He is bringing judgment upon Iraq and Afghanistan and Palestine for something we have no idea about. Is this how Muslims reconcile this verse and God's control of the earth's army with all that is happening in Muslim lands? I know in the Bible that God often used foreign armies to punish the children of Israel when they turned away from Him. So maybe God is using the infidel army in the same way - to punish His people and turn Muslim hearts back to Himself. That's how I would interpret it after seeing all that is happening in the world.
10. Those who swear allegiance to you indeed swear allegiance to God; and God's protection is over them. Then whosoever breaks the promise breaks it to his own loss; but whosoever fulfills the promise made to God will receive a great reward from Him.
It's so funny how God assures Muhammad our swearing allegiance to him is like swearing allegiance to God. Indeed the Quran is Muhammad's book! It actually is quite "shirkish" from my point of view. Especially when you see people asking Muhammad to intercede for their forgiveness (vs. 11) and most especially when you read verses like this one:
13. He who does not believe in God and His Apostle (should know) We have prepared for unbelievers a blazing fire."
God and His apostle? And this is not associating partners with God? Why not just say those who don't believe in God?
16. Say to the desert Arabs who had stayed behind: "You will be called against a formidable people. You will fight them till they surrender. If you obey, then He will give you a good reward; but if you turn back, as you had done before, He will punish you with a grievous affliction." 17. It is not binding on the blind, the lame or the sick (to follow this command); but those who obey God and His Apostle will be admitted by God to gardens with running streams; but those who turn back will suffer a painful doom.
Again, you must obey God and His apostle in order to be admitted into heaven. And aren't these verses about fighting people so much like Old Testament times?
18. God was pleased with the believers when they swore allegiance to you under the tree, for He knew well what was in their hearts, and sent down tranquility on them, and rewarded them with an expeditious victory
I suppose this reference to tranquility is what makes some say Islam is a religion of peace. Yet this is only for Muslims. For the rest of us, it's not a peaceful religion if you go by the Quran's teachings (with the exception of a few verses such as I noted here.)
23. This is the law of God, effective as before: You will not find any change in the law of God.
So why do Muslims not pray towards Jerusalem any more?
28. It is He who has sent His Apostle with the guidance and the true faith, so that He may exalt it over every other creed. God is sufficient as a witness.
After all that I've read from just this sura and the one before it, I'd be sure that this "sufficient witness" was truly God vouching for Muhammad. Jesus didn't teach such hatefulness so either God decided to return to harsher times or Jesus' message was a sham.
29. Muhammad is the Prophet of God; and those who are with him are severe with infidels but compassionate among themselves.
Not even close to loving your enemies and being a light among the dark world so the unbelievers will see your good works and glorify God in heaven! Not even close. For sure Muhammad reverted back to natural man's reaction instead of taking the high road of overcoming evil with good!
I told y'all sura 47 & 48 troubled me! :)
22 comments:
Great post! Loved this:
"I suppose this reference to tranquility is what makes some say Islam is a religion of peace. Yet this is only for Muslims. For the rest of us, it's not a peaceful religion if you go by the Quran's teachings (with the exception of a few verses such as I noted here.)"
That is so true.
I quoted a few verses like verse 29 in my post on "the unbelievers are the enemy". They bothered me greatly too. I don't see how anyone can go from following Jesus to that.
Sarah, "glad" you could relate to my post. Maybe this was meant for a one-time thing so it's event/time specific, but as Muslims themselves like to tell us, "Islam is a way of life. Islam is for all times" as if things taught back then are relevant now. And sadly, this is how those verses seem when you just read them. It's not love for others, only believers. It's not peaceful for others, only believers. So yeah Islam is a religion of peace and love, but ONLY if you are a Muslim.
:(
I appreciate the comment!
Susanne, you often compare the message of Muhammad with that of Jesus and Sarah's comment "I don't see how anyone can go from following Jesus to that" made me wonder why people need religion so much in their lives, and why do they convert?
I think religions bring peace in our lives. Today as I drove past a long street I noticed four mosques. Muslims pray to God five times a day. Such wonderful submission and constant gratitude! I was humbled.
I think this is why people convert - they were never good Christians to begin with. I think there are two major reasons why Christians leave their religion for Islam:
1) Most Christians are only Christian in name. I was talking about this with an American friend and he pointed out that 500 years ago Christianity was where Islam is today - it was controlling, obsessive, and demanded blind submission. Priests had moulded the loving message of Christ to become fierce and suit their agendas. He says we wait 500 years and see what happens to Islam. He suspects that the opposite will happen - the strict message will be moulded to become soft. Quran will be accepted as only inspired Vs the absolute word of God - it is already happening. I have heard Muslims secretly confess they don't think Quran is the absolute word of God. He suspects that Muslims themselves will stand up against the oppression expressed in V 29 for example.
So what has happened is that Christians have moved further away from the message of Jesus. Most just grow up celebrating Christmases and that is all there is to their faith. Church is made a chore – boring and unbearable. The society is changing so rapidly – change is good, bad change is bad. We are losing good values … for whatever reason. Christian (in name only) children are faced with so many hardships … unplanned pregnancies, drugs, heartaches, alarmingly high rate of divorce, peer pressure to do drugs, drink, sleep with each other.
Islam is the opposite extreme which they see as a safe haven. Before they convert they see women as respected. Their bodies covered and protected. They see people lovingly saying salaam to each other; celebrating Eids and Ramadan. Giving zakat. All good stuff that really doesn’t happen in their societies. I’m from London and it is a jungle. All this really doesn’t happen there. In the US I haven’t heard much good social stuff happening beyond the Bible Belt :D LOL (that was a joke!). So what do you do?!
Is there no prayer, worship, alms and charity, love and respect in Christianity? There definitely is and perhaps there is more in Christianity (loving your enemy like you point out so often) but the point is Muslims by and large still follow Islam and Christians by and large do not.
2) Then there are these Christians (and even Jews) who were born in practicing religious households (some were even priests) and they converted. How can they choose the message of Muhammad over that of Christ?
That happens because the human mind is evolving and thought is part of that evolution and it may seem odd and weird and plain wrong or blasphemous, but God incarnating as a human doesn’t make *sense* to people, including some who are born into the faith.
I often said in the past that belief is like blindly falling in love. When people start to *open their eyes and look* and rationalize, belief in Trinity doesn’t remain a belief anymore. It becomes irrational. This also happens to Muslims; I don’t deny that. They open their eyes and they often see that their belief in the Quran was blind. It can happen in any religion. But those who are brought up in religious households need religion like they need water to live. They will then look for a religion that doesn’t remove them from Jesus completely (whom they grew up to love), but which also doesn’t force them to worship him either. And that is Islam.
I am currently reading a book about why women leave Christianity for Islam. The book covers interviews from over 500 women and an overwhelming 98% of them said they left Christianity because they didn’t believe Jesus was God and Islam doesn’t force them to worship any man.
So in the end Jesus had a great message, he never preached hatred; he never even aimed at starting a new religion but the day Nicene Creed was created it also created a need for some people to reject Jesus’ message for that of Muhammad’s. These people can ignore surhas 47 and 48 and still be Muslim, but they can’t ignore Trinity and still be Christian.
Muslims who convert to Christianity convert for very different reasons.
I used to get confused about who ‘you’ was too. In this beginning, most recognize that it is Prophet Mohammed. Now, in order to explain what is meant by victory and to touch upon a bit of the other points, it’s necessary to explain the context behind this surah. What was happening?
First of all, this was the 6th year after the Hijra, or the emigration from Mecca to Madinah (Remember the Muslims had escaped the torture of the Pagan Arabs by running to Madinah. It was there they attempted to build an Islamic state. However, even then, the Pagans would not leave the Muslims alone. It wasn’t enough that they drove them out of their own city, boycotted them, tortured and killed several of them. They wanted to ‘destroy’ this Muslim state even when the Muslims just kept trying to go about their own business…). Anyways, during this year the Prophet had a dream in which he was performing minor pilgrimage or Umrah (which is done in Masjid Al Harma/think Kaba’ah). Since we believe his dreams were also revelations from Allah, the Prophet informed his Companions and they got ready to go, despite having been barred from the Holy Mosque by the Qurayahi for the past 6 years and despite knowing that if they were to go, they would literally be walking into ‘death’s very own jaws’. However, with confidence that to Allah belonged ‘the armies of the earth’, which I’ll get to ;), they went.
Anyways, so 1,400 of the Companions went with the Prophet. They took 70 camels with collars round their necks indicating that they were sacrificial animals, kept only a sword each in sheaths, which the pilgrims to the Kabah were allowed to carry according to the recognized custom of Arabia, but no other weapon. Thus, the caravan set out for the Ka'bah, the House of Allah, at Makkah, chanting the prescribed slogan of Labbaik, Allahuma Labbaik, which means “O, Allah I am at your service”-
Now think about this. If they had been coming to ‘attack the Meccans’ nobody would have done it chanting aloud/giving their position away. They did that to let the Pagans know that they were not coming to fight, they were not coming for war, they were only coming to visit the masjid and perform Umrah to Allah.
Not only that, but they had set out in one of the 4 months in which fighting was ‘forbidden’. It was obvious to all that the Prophet was not coming for war. But the Qurayshis were worried that if they let the Prophet in, they would lose their image of power in Arabia and the people would say that they were afraid of Muhammad, etc. So they decided they were not going to let him and his companions in!
The Prophet then decided to take a different route to reach the Masjid. It was here that he ended up meeting several different chiefs of the Pagan tribes who each attested to their own tribes/the Qurayshis that it was obvious he had come for peace. One of them, Hulays, even said he would not ‘participate’ nor allow his people to paritipcate in this barring of a people to perform a religious rite. It just wasn’t right. (get it? A pun, LOL)
Eventually, the Qurayshis sent their own people to ‘discuss’ with the Prophet the issue and a treaty was drawn known as Truce of Hudaybiyahh.
Now, here’s the thing. When the truce was drawn up, many of the Companions were very surprised because it was clearly in favor of the Pagans (they, on the other hand, were very smug, hehe_. The Companions felt it was unfair- didn’t we come only to perform pilgrimage? Why were they being treated this way? Why did they have to ‘agree to such ‘unfair’ terms?
(What were these terms: 1) Both parties would observe a treaty of peace for 10 years, 2) the Muslims could not perform the Umrah until the next year and even then, they could not stay in Mecca for longer than 3 days, any man who left Quraysh and went to join the Muslims in Madinah had to be sent back to the Quraysh, but if a Muslim went to Quraysh, he was not to be sent back…)
In fact, (here we touch lightly upon the ‘obey’ issue), they didn’t listen to the Prophet ‘s command to go and shave their heads and sacrifice the animals, which we do to signal the end of the pilgrimage. He told them, and they refused to get up! He told them again, and again, they were so overcome by depression and dejection that they would not comply…He told them one last time and again they did not stand up or do as he said – that means he gave them a command 3 times. No wonder then this verse about obeying God and His apostle appeared in this surah, then (I’ll explain more later). ( OH and the prophet then went and told his wife, UmmSalama, what happened and she advised him to go and shave his head, etc. and that they would all imitate him once he did that. Sure enough that’s what happened. *I say this part for those who think we don’t think women are intelligent. The Prophet, who we believe was inspired by God, asked his wife what to do!).
Anyways, after all this happened, the Qur’an revealed the verse in question, calling it a ‘clear victory’. Why? Because this truce actually was a formal recognition of the Muslim state and the Qurayshi were indirectly admitting the right of all people to practice their religion freely (remember, at first they used to bar them, etc.). Not only that, but later, many many many people converted and the wisdom behind this truce (rather than war/fighting) was understood.
We learned from this example that victories do not come only from war. Victories come from peace treaties- there is much to be gained from this lesson in itself, but even more when we consider the next part:
What happened was three years laterthe Qurayshis violated the truce and the Prophet went back to Mecca, this time with 10,000 men. He went with his head lowered, not as a conqueror. Do you know what he did, then? He said, “No blame will there be on you today. Go for you are free”, after all the years they had spent plotting against him, torturing his followers, etc. He forgave them! Okay, now on to the next parts..
So maybe God is using the infidel army in the same way - to punish His people and turn Muslim hearts back to Himself.
What an interesting way to look at it, Susanne! Since I am familiar with many stories of the Prophet, I understood that by armies it doesn’t refer to ‘man’ but the natural word. (However, of course, as you are saying, God does have power over the non-believers armies. We have a saying of Abu Bakr which goes something like this- when you believe and have true faith in God and you strive in His way as He wants you to, God grants you victory over the non-believers, even if the non-believers have a more powerful army than you. But if you don’t have true faith, don’t live the way He wants you to, etc., then it is a matter of ‘army against army’- God allows the ‘stronger’ army to win. Is that clear? )
BUT anyways, by armies here, let me give you an example. One of the ways the Pagan Arabs tried to destroy the Muslim state in Madinah (before this whole truce) was by making an alliance with other Arab pagans, Jewish tribes outside, and even Jews who lived within Madinah and the hypocrites of the Madina. That is, they fomred a coalition of at least 10,000 people and they were all ready to attack the Muslims. The Prophet, informed of this attack, began to build trenches with the Companions to defend Madinah. Still, the coalition ‘forces’ came and they besieged Madinah for 3 weeks! Finally…after all this time, the Muslims won.
You know how?
By the ‘wind’
That’s right.
Because God controls the winds, He sent violent winds against the enemy camp and that was how they won, against 10,000 people!
Another story-when the Prophet was running away from the Meccan Pagans who were plotting to kill him (on his way to Madinah), he hid in a cave. The Pagans came running after him and they actually found the cave that he was in. They were literally inches away from him, but Allah ordered a spider to quickly weave a web at the entrance of the cave. One of the Pagans then noticed it and he said to the others, “Forget it. There’s no way, he went inside the cave because this web would have been destroyed’.
Again, God saved Prophet Mohammed by a little spider.
To Allah is all that is in the heavens and the earth and He uses what He wills as agents- even the river that Moses’ mother cast him into when he was a baby was one of God’s forces. God willed it take Moses to Pharaoh and actually had Moses actually grow up in Pharaoh’s own house after Pharaoh had killed all those male babies (cause of his dream), etc. So He is the Almighty and His armies are things we don’t even know/realize.
The angels are also God’s armies :D
God and His apostle? And this is not associating partners with God? Why not just say those who don't believe in God? It actually is quite "shirkish" from my point of view.
It’s interesting how you interpret it , and I like the way you wrote ‘shirkish’, adding an English ending to it, hehe, but here’s the thing. There are millions of people who believe in God….but they don’t necessarily believe in Prophet Mohammed. God’s Apostle, here represents Islam and the Islamic way of life. Remember, when the Qur’an was being revealed it was not being addressed to ATHIESTS. It was being addressed to Pagans who claimed to already believe in God; they never once denied His existence. If the word “Mohammed/Apostle/Messenger” hadn’t been mentioned here, they could have and I could naturally claim that anyone who says he believes in God is going to heaven and will be saved. I could say the Jews are all going to heaven and so are the Christians, etc. But we don’t exactly believe that (just as they don’t believe we’re going to heaven, either :P). As a famous scholar said, ‘the statement that there is No God but God’ is the key to paradise, but every key has ridges. If you come with the key that has the right ridges, the door will open for you. Yet if you do not have the right ridges the door will not open for you."
The primary key for us is submission to Allah and to His will and commands, right." Now we believe that we cannot surrender completely to the Allah without following the example of one he has chosen for us to follow, Prophet Mohammed. So this statement implies the necessity of acceptance of Prophet Mohammed as the final Prophet and adherence to his teachings.
In addition, as you have noticed yourself, the Qur’an is not that detailed. It tells us to pray, but it doesn’t tell us how. It tells us to give charity, but not how much. This statement tells us that we have to follow the Prophet’s orders (believe that they are Divinely Inspired) as well. That is why we are commanded to ‘obey the Messenger’, because he did not give a commandment that was not Divinely Revealed to him.
In fact, if it weren’t for the Prophet, we wouldn’t know that :
The Prophet said, "Whoever killed a Mu'ahid (a person who the Muslims have a treaty with) shall not smell the fragrance of Paradise though its fragrance can be smelt at a distance of forty years (of traveling)."
'He who eats his fill while his neighbor goes without food is not a believer. '
(whether his neighbor is a Muslim or not)
However, it is very important that we do not fall into shirk, mistaking them as equals, or even loving Prophet Mohamed equally to Allah. This would be total shirk!!
"Yet of mankind are some who take unto themselves (objects of worship which they set as) rivals to Allah, loving them with a love like (that which is due to) Allah only. However, those who believe are stauncher in their love of Allah" (al-Baqarah: 165)..
As for” Islam is ‘peace’ only for Muslims, I’d like to bring to your attention this verse which you haven’t reached yet:
Allah does not forbid you, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them : for God loves those who are just (Surat Al Mumatihina)
So basically, the context of that verse needs to be taken into consideration, especially when we see this entire chapter:
“Say, O, disbelievers: I do not worship what you worship. (2) Nor are you worshippers of what I worship. (3) Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship. (4) Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship. (5) For you is your religion, and for me is my religion." (6) (Chapter 109)
Furthermore, Islam sent down rules even during war 1,400 years ago:
• Innocent civilians should not be killed.
• Women, children, or old people should not be killed or hurt.
• Women must not be raped.
• Enemies must be treated with justice.
• Wounded enemy soldiers must be treated in exactly the same way as one's own soldiers .
• The war must stop as soon as the enemy asks for peace.
• Property must not be damaged.
• Poisoning wells is forbidden. The modern analogy would be chemical or biological warfare.
Also, just a few of the rights that non-Muslims have in Islam.
Ibn Hazm, a classical scholar of Islam, explained this, with his understanding of Islamic principles and teachings:
‘If we are attacked by an enemy nation who is targeting the People of the Covenant living among us, it is out duty to come fully armed and ready to die in battle for them , to protect those people who are protected by the covenant of God and His Messenger. Doing any less and surrendering them will be blameworthy neglect of a sacred promise.’
The Prophet stated:
“Beware! Whoever is cruel and hard on a non-Muslim minority, curtails their rights, burdens them with more than they can bear, or takes anything from them against their free will; I (Prophet Muhammad) will complain against the person on the Day of Judgment.” (Abu Dawud)
Caliph Abu Bakr as-Siddiq wrote to the non-Muslims of Najran:
‘In the Name of God, the Beneficent, the Merciful. This is the written statement of God’s slave Abu Bakr, the successor of Muhammad, the Prophet and Messenger of God. He affirms for you the rights of a protected neighbor, in yourselves, your lands, your religious community, your wealth, retainers, and servants, those of you who are present or abroad, your bishops and monks, and monasteries, and all that you own, be it great or small. You shall not be deprived of any of it, and shall have full control over it…
Will Durant wrote:
‘At the time of the Umayyad caliphate, the people of the covenant, Christians, Zoroastrians, Jews, and Sabians, all enjoyed degree of tolerance that we do not find even today in Christian countries. They were free to practice the rituals of their religion and their churches and temples were preserved. They enjoyed autonomy in that they were subject to the religious laws of the scholars and judges. (Durant, Will: ‘The Story Of Civilization.’ vol. 13. p. 131-132.)
Sarira, a part of your comment caught my attention when you wrote “However, even then, the Pagans would not leave the Muslims alone. It wasn’t enough that they drove them out of their own city, boycotted them, tortured and killed several of them. They wanted to ‘destroy’ this Muslim state even when the Muslims just kept trying to go about their own business”
Reza Aslan does say that “War, according to the Quran, is either just or unjust; it is never “holy.” Consequently, jihad is best defined as a primitive “just war theory”: a theory born out of necessity and developed in the midst of a bloody and often chaotic war”… between Muhammad and pagans. But what he also says later is actually attested by several historians:
“Strangely, the Quraysh seemed at first to be completely untroubled by the success of Muhammad’s community in Yathrib. Certainly they were aware of what was taking place… But while they may have been concerned with the growing number of his followers, as long they remained confined to Yathrib, Mecca was content to forget all about Muhammad. Muhammad, however, was not willing to forget about Mecca. Perhaps the greatest transformation that occurred in Yathrib was not in the traditional tribal system but in the prophet himself.” (p.81)
From all the historical accounts that I have read, Meccans didn’t bother about Muslims in Medina until the latter began their raids. That was the beginning of all wars, clearly instigated first by Muslims. I have often forced myself to understand how the pagans could have been so cruel towards the early Muslims and especially Muhammad. Look at us, Muslims, what do *we* do when a man comes and says he is a Muslim prophet sent by Allah? What did we do to Rashad Khalifa and Mirza Ahmed? They were peaceful people. They showed their own miracles in their own ways. They taught goodness and love. They believed and worshipped Allah and believed in Muhammad. We killed them because we believe Muhammad was the last prophet. But Jews and Christians also believe Moses and Jesus were the last prophets. The pagans had their own beliefs and they didn’t attack Muslims until their gods and their complete monopoly over the Kaaba and Mecca were threatened. I’m not siding with the pagans, only trying to understand what happened without taking sides.
Suroor, thanks for your thought-provoking comment!
"Muslims pray to God five times a day. Such wonderful submission and constant gratitude! I was humbled."
I am the same way. If anything were to convince me of Islam it would be the devoted outward submission to God in salat. If that's all there were to it. The message of the Quran is not so compelling and neither is Muhammad, but I love the gathering for prayer and hope it's more out of WANT TO than obligation or fear of hell. Huge difference. If I require something of people and they feel obligated to meet a requirement to please me, it's hugely different - in my view - than someone *wanting* to spend time in worship and prayer to God.
"So what has happened is that Christians have moved further away from the message of Jesus. "
I would argue that 500 years ago when priests were oppressing people and using their power for their own agendas this moving away from Jesus' message was happening. And, yes, it is moving that way still but in different ways of which your examples provided great proof (illicit sex, drugs, alcohol addictions, etc.). I think neither extreme is Jesus' message! Not the strict controlling way of the priests of 500 years past and not the liberalized Christianity (in name only) that we see today. I TOTALLY AGREE!
And this is also why I think people have embraced Islam. They can't separate what they know of Christianity (this farce which we have today in the West) from the REAL deal. NOT what priests told us Christianity was 500 years ago, but what Jesus Christ told us over 2000 years ago! So when they say "This [illicit sex, drugs, alcohol addictions] is Christianity? How is this different from the unbelievers? Where is the hope in this? It's so empty. It leaves me wanting more..some sort of standard." Then yes I have often thought this is why people convert to much "stricter" forms of religion. Because they've found the other is empty. This is why I always always always stress RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS and not religion! Not even Christianity because I agree that it's just a dead word..empty of what it truly should mean!
"Most just grow up celebrating Christmases and that is all there is to their faith."
Ha, ha...so funny you said that as I made a similar comment just last night without having read what you wrote first. :) I wrote this: " I suppose I look for people actually being involved in religious activities when they say a child chose a certain faith. I hardly think unwrapping presents at Christmas as the whole of following Jesus. :) "
"but the point is Muslims by and large still follow Islam and Christians by and large do not."
I totally agree! When I first met Samer and we were in only our second or third e-mail exchange I even asked him "what does being a Christian mean to you?" because you are so right. It really means very very little! I said as much again in a comment on the same post I referred to above. I said: " I know many Americans today call themselves "Christian," yet that doesn't mean they actually follow much about the faith. They are more nominal/cultural Christians than maybe "practicing" ones. (Sure I believe in Jesus, but that's about the extent of my Christianity.)" So I totally get what you mean about why some women convert. They like that protection. They like to feel secure in an evil world. Who wouldn't?
"I often said in the past that belief is like blindly falling in love. When people start to *open their eyes and look* and rationalize, belief in Trinity doesn’t remain a belief anymore. It becomes irrational. "
Yes, that makes sense. It IS irrational in the sense that we can't explain it by our minds, rationalize it or make it logical. True! Although it seems a cop-out to rational-minded folks, this is also why we call it FAITH. When we know all the answers and have things sorted out logically in our minds, there is no faith left. We figured out the puzzle that is God.
And I'm on the other side concerning Islam. They look at Muhammad as nearly divine though they will deny it (hey, actions talk louder than words) and yet I see a very flawed man and a less-than inspiring book when I read the Quran. I mean it has some nice verses, but overall there is just threats about believing Muhammad or you will roast in hell. It's more a book of fear than relationship. It's more a book for the legitimacy of Muhammad and his highstanding place in society and special privileges. Most prophets of God were humble men who didn't get special favors. John the Baptist lived in the desert and ate locust and honey. Jesus washed his disciples feet, he touched lepers, he went into graveyards to heal people. Muhammad got more wives than any other Muslim and even special revelations "from God" to justify things that even shocked the community (sura 33). So when I try to see Islam the way Muslims do, I fail. I just can't accept this man and his message which is all about himself. But I digress from your great comments ...
" they didn’t believe Jesus was God and Islam doesn’t force them to worship any man."
Except Muhammad and all his rules. But I understand. Maybe unitarian Christianity would have been better for them.
Enjoyed your challenging comment - thank you for taking time to write all that! :)
Sarira, thanks for sharing the Muslims' POV on this passage. I enjoyed the story.
" in this barring of a people to perform a religious rite. It just wasn’t right. (get it? A pun, LOL)"
:D You're cute!
"What an interesting way to look at it, Susanne! "
Heheheh...well, you know I interpret things through my own life experiences and what I read so if this is how God sometimes works to turn His people to Himself among the Israelites and it's the same God, why not? I'm trying to be logical in thinking God hasn't changed. :)
"But if you don’t have true faith, don’t live the way He wants you to, etc., then it is a matter of ‘army against army’- God allows the ‘stronger’ army to win. Is that clear? ) "
Yes, He removes His special touch (His power) and just lets the two sides fight and whoever is more powerful and clever by man's own might wins. Yes, that makes sense.
Neat stories about the winds and the spider and how God used both. :)
"and I like the way you wrote ‘shirkish’, adding an English ending to it, "
I'm known for making up my own words....thanks for the explanation you provided and for putting up with the way I interpret things. You're a good sport! :)
"So this statement implies the necessity of acceptance of Prophet Mohammed as the final Prophet and adherence to his teachings."
So Muhammad is your "key" with the right ridges. And for me it's Jesus with his talk of being "the Way,the Truth and the Life" and "no one comes to the Father except by me." Jesus even says he is the door so..... *shrug*
But the key analogy was a good one. I appreciate your taking time to explain so thoroughly! You are sweet to do so!
Your rules of war sound really nice. Sadly, I don't see fighting Muslims who seem to practice those things today. Maybe they have lost the message of Islam and aren't true Muslims just like I don't believe true followers of Christ can fight their enemies when Jesus told us how to love them by meeting their needs. Thanks for sharing those. Very nice to read.
Suroor, thanks for bringing another perspective to the Pagans' problems with Muslims. I don't think I'd tolerate raiders either. Interesting stuff.
Thank you all for your comments!
Sorry I deleted the comment because it had typos. Here it is now:
"If anything were to convince me of Islam it would be the devoted outward submission to God in salat... I love the gathering for prayer and hope it's more out of WANT TO than obligation or fear of hell."
I can tell you that Muslims who pray really want to. It brings peace to them. Most Muslims will not miss a prayer because they are scared of Hell but because they owe worship and gratitude to Allah. I love that about Islam and I think there no religion in the modern world that inculcates such regular reminder of God.
There is a difference between the love for God in Islam and in Christianity, however. I have yet to meet a Christian who feels complete love for God the Father that s/he feels for God the Son. This is a major reason I don't believe that trinity can ever be unity. In the end there are three separate Persons loved and revered (not worshiped) in the order: Jesus, God the Father, and the Holy Ghost. If Jesus will exist as a separate Person with the Father in Heaven then it is not unity. Thus, a Muslim will love revere and worship only one God and it may seem to non-Muslims as though Muhammad is given equal status with God, but he is not. Muhammad is not worshiped. He is not a godhead or person. He is not even an angel; not even an intercessor in the Quran. His contemporaries, his own companions loved him but were also often very vocal about their concerns. Once or twice they even refused to obey him. His wives threw clay plates at him and argued with him. This is not what you do to someone you think is equal to God.
So while Muhammad is very important to Islam, to Muslims and in the Quran he is never even close to being a godhead. He is often called God's servant, slave, messenger. The shahadah itself testifies Muhammad as no more than a slave and messenger of Allah which I think is the greatest proof of the difference between monotheism and polytheism.
We see Muhammad worshiping God in Islam and Jesus worshiping God in Christianity. They use different terms for their relationship with God: Muhammad calls himself a slave of God (an exoteric definition); Jesus creates a mystical relationship and calls himself a son of God (like many, many rabbis used to call themselves) which is an esoteric definition. It is us the followers who turned Muhammad into a superhuman (some claiming he didn't have a shadow) and Jesus into God.
I know you don't agree with my thoughts but one of the several proofs for me is that if Jesus was God there would have been no two opinions about it. There would never have been the Unitarians and the Trinitarians. Trinity was created. Unitarianism preexisted with the earliest Christians, the Nazarenes.
This however doesn't make Islam the Truth. That is not my premise and I know many Christians who lose faith in Trinity jump into Islam because they think since now they are convinced Jesus was not God, the only religion that preaches it emphatically must be the Truth.
So what am I saying? I am saying that of course Quran will give prominence to Muhammad! Shouldn't that be a given?! :D But I don't know if any Muslim will confuse Muhammad with a godhead. All Muslims greatly love Muhammad but they are very clear about the difference between love and worship. Even saying to Muslims that they love Muhammad as much as Allah is an insult to them. They love both God and Muhammad, but they love God more; and they only worship God, not Muhammad.
Suroor, thank you for making the case for Muslims not believe Muhammad is equal to God. I had to laugh at his wives throwing clay plates at him. :)
"There is a difference between the love for God in Islam and in Christianity, however. I have yet to meet a Christian who feels complete love for God the Father that s/he feels for God the Son. This is a major reason I don't believe that trinity can ever be unity. In the end there are three separate Persons loved and revered (not worshiped) in the order: Jesus, God the Father, and the Holy Ghost. If Jesus will exist as a separate Person with the Father in Heaven then it is not unity."
Interesting points. I think many people don't know how to love God. I don't really. How do I show my love for God? Maybe this is by keeping the commandments so perhaps I *should* be more bound by ritual and tradition and laws. I have a hard time loving sometimes, but then again am I thinking of love as a *feeling* and that's why I find it hard? I think we can love and identify more with God incarnate (Jesus) simply because we are human and this god/man Jesus was one of us and we can "love" in the human sense of the word him more because of that. It's harder - for me - to love a force, the energy, a spirit -- I am limited. Trust me this has bothered me. I have pondered before how can I love GOD more? But maybe my definition of "love" is wrong. I don't know. It's interesting that you brought up this point which deeply challenges me. Much food for thought ...
My understanding of Jesus was that if we glorified him, we glorified his Father. So if I love HIM, it's the same as my loving God. Kind of like Sarira's case for if we obey Muhammad it was the same as obeying God because it showed we accepted God's teachings of Islam which Muhammad brought. But maybe that's not true of Jesus and his Father and what you say is right.
I kind of got the idea from this:
21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him." (John 14)
"I know you don't agree with my thoughts but one of the several proofs for me is that if Jesus was God there would have been no two opinions about it. There would never have been the Unitarians and the Trinitarians. Trinity was created. Unitarianism preexisted with the earliest Christians, the Nazarenes."
I'll give this more thought. I have to run now. Father's Day dinner with the family. Thanks much for your comments! Really thought-provoking and a (needed) slap in the face! :)
Susanne, I apologise for that unintended verbal slap :D I was actually trying to make sense of things for myself.
I worship in churches and mosques. To me God, Allah, Yahweh is everywhere. I love churches and adore church window art. But every time I go inside a church I find Jesus, not the Father. Interestingly, my local church here is quite Arabicised even though it is not Coptic but rather Evangelical. There is only a large wooden cross and that is it. There are no statues of Mary or Jesus. I do miss that about the churches from back home but I feel I can concentrate on God in this church. That is where this thought about loving Jesus more that the Father developed.
"I think many people don't know how to love God. I don't really. How do I show my love for God? Maybe this is by keeping the commandments so perhaps I *should* be more bound by ritual and tradition and laws."
Why should you know *how* to love God? There is no *how* but only how much. Loving God is completely DIY :) And the kind of DIY that comes without the instruction manual. I feel love for God in a church and I don't care a damn who thinks what. I feel that same trance kind of feeling when I am standing at the gate of the Kaaba. Just standing, not moving - staring and marveling that so many centuries of God-lovers have seen that cube and touched it and cried at its gate. It is a feeling of unity - of God and of myself with others. Again I don't care what people think why I'm not going around it but just staring at it like a shell-shocked refugee. That is what I am, a refugee seeking refuge in God's arms whether that is in a church or at the Kaaba.
Love is subjective. It can never be objective for then it wouldn’t be love. So you can't copy someone on how to love. That is why I don't confuse worship with loving God because at least the salah is very objective. It is precise, exact, like a military exercise. Keeping laws is obeying God, maybe even respecting Him but love is still different. For me love to is to feel God in your life, to think about Him ALL the time, to know that eventually everything is alright because of Him. To me when I carry a neighbour’s groceries I am loving God through His creation. If I look down when I walk so I don’t stamp ants I am loving God. I am loving God if I pick up a banana peel from the sidewalk because He put me there at that time in that spot to do it on His behalf. A loving child is one who is obsessed with pleasing her parent. I think you that very well with your dear heart :)
Suroor, no need to apologize! I'd just told Sarah that I didn't mind friendly slaps so it was good. :-D You showed me what a jerk I was and how insulting to Muslims I was for saying that they revered Muhammad as God. I still know what I mean by that, but your point was well-taken so I appreciate what you said!
My church is similar to how you described the local church in your area. We also don't have the statues and window art. I agree both are lovely in their own ways. One for the iconic reminders and the other for its simplicity.
"But every time I go inside a church I find Jesus, not the Father"
Is that because of the window art and statues? It makes sense that you'd only "find Jesus" in those as he was the God in human flesh. One can't depict God the Father since we are limited by our human minds and what is He? A force, a spirit? Jesus is easier to depict on window art since he had a human body and experiences we find in the gospels (walking among the people, teaching, healing, being baptized, etc.).
Or do you mean you only find Jesus because all the songs are geared toward worship of him? Just so you don't think we are crazy, many of us do believe we glorify God by loving His son. Kind of like I could please you very much as a mother if I adored and loved the children you find most precious.
And I think God is loved when we love Jesus because they are one. Although this is only a crude human example, I can love my dad as my father and still be loving my dad even though I don't love him as my dad the son of David and Helen or my dad the brother of Henry and Tom. I love my dad as my dad whereas my grandparents love him as their son, but we still all love MY DAD.
"That is what I am, a refugee seeking refuge in God's arms whether that is in a church or at the Kaaba."
Loved that imagery! So,so beautiful!
"Love is subjective. It can never be objective for then it wouldn’t be love. So you can't copy someone on how to love. That is why I don't confuse worship with loving God because at least the salah is very objective. It is precise, exact, like a military exercise. Keeping laws is obeying God, maybe even respecting Him but love is still different. For me love to is to feel God in your life, to think about Him ALL the time, to know that eventually everything is alright because of Him."
Wow, that was really wonderful and thought-provoking. I will keep this in mind and "chew on it" as my friend Joni likes to say. Really, really happy you shared that. I agree that love can't be broken down to an instruction manual as that is robotic and not love from the heart.
One last thing: I really had to leave yesterday when I was finishing up my comment to you so I wasn't able to comment about this, but I was thinking of it just now.
"I know you don't agree with my thoughts but one of the several proofs for me is that if Jesus was God there would have been no two opinions about it. There would never have been the Unitarians and the Trinitarians. Trinity was created. Unitarianism preexisted with the earliest Christians, the Nazarenes."
I know the word Trinity was created to explain the mystery of three persons in one being. And it was only man's limited attempt at explaining how a single God could demonstrate or show Himself to the world in three ways. (Hey, maybe in reality there are MORE than 3.) It was an attempt by them to explain the Father, the Son and the Spirit of God. What I think often is the Father is God always in Heaven. The Son is the Father's Word expressed (and instead of His Word being expressed on parchment or in a song or even a clay statue, it was expressed in human form in order to show us the way Home.) And the Spirit is the Helper God gives us. Part of Himself that is given to all who believe in Him. This Helper guides us in day-to-day living and shows us how and enables us to live as Jesus lived.
In John 17 there is a long prayer recorded that Jesus prayed to the Father. It was about unity at one point and it shows how important that unity was for Jesus. He wanted the believers to be unified just as the Father and Son and Spirit were one. I know it's a struggle for our minds to grasp. I think I finally understood it a bit more - of all things - when I read "The Shack." It's a bit of a startling book when you see God portrayed in a surprising way, but the message of the unity among the three and the joy they shared as three in one was quite eye-opening and pleasant. Its message to me was the joy of a unified Body of Christ (the Church, like the Christian "ummah" if you will). We see for so long how DIVISIONS have created strife and hard feelings and even hatred and wars!
I think the message of the Trinity is this -- see how beautiful unity is? Three Persons in One - the perfect example of harmony, respect, love and "dependence" on each other and each other's roles to create one unified Love. One glorious God who loves us as a Father and therefore communicated that love for us by even coming down to our level and expressing Himself to us in human terms (Jesus) and who sends us the Helper (the Spirit) so we could live the way our perfect example (Jesus) did. This is why I always say we don't do good works to earn salvation, but rather God works through us as a result of our being saved (salvation being declared "right with God" by accepting His work for us on the cross. Thus making HIM-- and not our good works (us)-- the Savior .)
As for their being differing opinions as proof....eh, there are always differing opinions on things. People don't even believe there is a God yet that hasn't stopped ME from seeing the majesty all around me and knowing there is Someone or Something out there bigger than me. :)
Thanks for your lovely, challenging comments!!! You are always such a big help!!!
Suroor,here is what I wrote about "The Shack" nearly two years ago in case you want to read a few of my impressions. I was glad to reread my notes as I actually kind of needed the reminder about not worrying. Michael is going to a week-long, overnight camp this afternoon through Saturday. :(
http://susanne430.blogspot.com/2008/07/book-review-on-shack.html
Susie, Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts and ideas. I also enjoyed the Shack post :)
Good luck to Michael! I'm sure he'll have lots of fun. Independence is good sometimes :)
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